Magic vs Prayer

[TheDisreputableDog]

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

And any other points or clarifications on the subject you wish to add.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

No. My gods have little to do with such.

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

See above.

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Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

If it is my will, why would I thank them?

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Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

Some. Rarely. Depends on the ritual.

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If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

If I want something- I work my tail off to get it.  

[patch99329]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Yup.

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

Yup.

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Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

Sometimes smile If I think they have helped something go my way!

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Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

Yeah smile My rituals are usually for them.

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If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

I pray mostly...but sometimes use both or just magic. smile  

[TeaDidikai]

It seems my gods hold that Actions speak louder than Words.

As a result, prayer is not done often outside of certain rather specific situations.  

[Starlock]

This reminds me of an interesting question from a workshop I took a while back. When studying up on chakras, specifically the Crown chakra, one of the self-examination questions asked was "Do you complain to the Divine more than you express gratitude?" Given the frequency with which people say things such as "God damnit" or other such phrases, seems most of us don't give enough thank you's. Granted we say these sorts of phrases so unthinkingly we may not recognize or intend it to be construed as blaming the Divine for our little problems. Was bringing this up part of your intention behind this post, Disrep, or were you just curious? whee  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Starlock

Was bringing this up part of your intention behind this post, Disrep, or were you just curious? whee

Partly. smile It seems to be the case that god is blamed more than thanked--which got me wondering, when should god be thanked?

What specifically got me thinking about it was an incident at a concert recently where I was repeatedly stepped on by screaming tone-deaf teenage girls. Tired of being crushed and having beer sprayed on me, knowing they wouldn't be able to hear me if I complained, I started creating physical space around me with my elbows and my stance (I can't shield) as one girl kept jumping on me. When she decided to "retaliate" by shoving me as hard as she could into the people in front of me and screaming at me to get off her, I started trying to get her to leave me alone mentally since the physical approach obviously wasn't working. What I was trying to will was "Shut up, sit down, go away, leave me alone"--but what actually happened after about five minutes was the people standing on the seats in front of me left and gave me their spot, so I got away from the screamers and could actually see the band for the rest of the concert.

It made my night, but it wasn't what I was looking for with my attempted tricks and I wasn't actively asking for it. So was that the result of my will, the assistance of my gods, my luck, just a happy coincidence?

I was just wondering at the relationships people have between their gods and using magic. A lot of salad-bar pagan rituals I've been in invoke the God or Goddess as such or under specific names "appropriate" to the season/purpose ( :eyeroll: )--so is it really magic, the result of your Will, if you've asked for help from the Divine or summoned Them or whatever? And when do you know whether a spell has worked because you cast the spell or because your gods decided to tweak things? Or because it was your luck/fate/other for things to happen that way in the first place?

I don't do a lot of magic so I was looking to hear from others who have different views on those aspects of their lives, how they reconcile the two. (I could guess Tea's answers but her elaborations are always enlightening. wink )  

[TeaDidikai]

For me, all of those can be a factor.

Luck is a major part of my practice. Boons and banes against certain things make a difference.

I'm looking forward to Deo's response. Orlog can be a very interesting thing in situations such as what you described.  

[Fiddlers Green]

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Nope. My magic, my knowledge, not a divine gift.

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

Nope. My knowledge, if it failed, it probably failed because I botched it somehow.

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Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

Acts of will?
Please elaborate.

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Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

In some religious rituals, yes, but they are unrelated to the "magics" I work.

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If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

Well, generally, I view asking for outside help as a last resort.
If I want something, I determine how bad I want it, what I am willing to do to gain it... then I start with the easiest or most mundane way, and work my way into esoteria.
Asking for help from a divinity is the only thing that I would consider a last resort after asking another human for help.
I hate having debts, especially to things beyound my complete kenning.

Am I the only person here who practices secular magic unrelated to his/her religion? eek

When I cast a spell correctly, I am more concerned with the results, and the affirmation of my own personal mastery of the embedded functions and truths of creation than any divinity's relation to me.

Now, when a divinity performs me a boon, I will be propperly grateful, if a bit suspicious, especially if that boon was unsolicited.
As far as blaming a god for something... that seems like a cop out. If I fail, it is usually my own failing. However, if I can find direct evidence of the involvement from something beyound, I'll spend less time bemoaning the situation, and more time seeking a way to end whatever thing was messing with me.  

[Rookherst[KOS]]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Don't see a point, unless I previously solicited intersection...

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

What would be the point?

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Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

No. Quite Franky I think that defeats the point of my spirituality.

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Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

Usually, when I find such a Presence is needed.

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If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

Certainly Depends on the Situation...

If I want that Cup on the ledge, using magic or praying seems rather like adding an extra step in...  

[Deoridhe]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

Nope, no more than I insult them when a spell screws up. Magic is all on me, good and bad.

TheDisreputableDog

Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

Any religious rituals, yes - frequently. Both requests, thanks, and honorings are included in the context of a Blot or Sumbel. I also petition/honor/thank ancestors and heroes.

TheDisreputableDog

If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

Depends on the situation. If I think I can do something, I usually try to. If I don't think I can, I usually ask for deity intervention. I never muck with weather using magic, for instance, and I try not to send people "luck" or "blessings" outside of a godly context. In contrast, whenever I see an emergency vehicle, I send Elhaz after it, so make of that what you will.

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Starlock

This reminds me of an interesting question from a workshop I took a while back. When studying up on chakras, specifically the Crown chakra, one of the self-examination questions asked was "Do you complain to the Divine more than you express gratitude?" Given the frequency with which people say things such as "God damnit" or other such phrases, seems most of us don't give enough thank you's.

I have always had some issues with the 'gratitude work" that's common in New Age philosophy and neo-paganism. Gratitude for an actual gift is one thing; gratitude fo existence is another altogether. There is a quality to the gratitude I've seen and the way it us presented which sets one as "lower" or "lesser" or "inferior" to the gods (or the divine) while simultaneously (and somewhat hypocritically, given the humility one is supposed to embody with gratitude) making one the focus of a deity's attention. It's sort of an obsequious faux humility which some people (not all, but many) pick up and then dust around themselves. I'm allergic.

It also takes the gods from being individuals to mushing them into this benevolent thing which looks an awful lot like the milquetoast version of YHWH, but that's fairly common in both movements as they're both so heavily Christian influenced.

I'm not a fan of huge shows of gratitude or humility. They often seem to act as a cover for self-aggrandizement or insecurity, and as someone prone to both I attempt to eschew anything leading me in that direction.

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TheDisreputableDog

It made my night, but it wasn't what I was looking for with my attempted tricks and I wasn't actively asking for it. So was that the result of my will, the assistance of my gods, my luck, just a happy coincidence?

I'd say a combo of luck and will, personally. When trying to determine if a god has interviewed on my behalf without a specific deal being brokered, I usually look to see what he or she will get out of it (even if that thing is more for my benefit than his or hers - not common with the gods I deal with most, keep in mind), and if I can think of nothing but still it has the scent of a god, I ask.

My gods aren't subtle, though. They don't quietly leave a chocolate bar on my pillow to cheer me up, if you will forgive the metaphor. They're more likely to show up with some soup and a receipt from the grocery store. ^^

TheDisreputableDog

I was just wondering at the relationships people have between their gods and using magic. A lot of salad-bar pagan rituals I've been in invoke the God or Goddess as such or under specific names "appropriate" to the season/purpose ( :eyeroll: )--so is it really magic, the result of your Will, if you've asked for help from the Divine or summoned Them or whatever? And when do you know whether a spell has worked because you cast the spell or because your gods decided to tweak things? Or because it was your luck/fate/other for things to happen that way in the first place?

A lot of this hinges on specific variables:

1) The discipline you are using. Runic magic, for instance, is so divorced from the gods' power that they use it themselves. In contrast, Ceremonial Magick is all but designed to invoke the power of other beings while keeping them contained, so if the being targeted is a god, then the magic is divine.

2) The specific skills of the caster. Highly ritualized magic and symbolic or knowledge based magic seems to, in my experience, make room for people without much personal power to piggyback on the power of other things to get stuff done. In contrast, things like straight energy work seem to have much more of a personal power basis. Both have advantages and disadvantages, of course. I tend to favor a melding of the two for various reasons; my personal shields, for instance, are slowly having runes incorporated so that if something bigger than I'm expecting shows up I can trigger them and run not just on my own resources.

3) Your relationships with the gods you deal with. Some people are... gods' pets, to put it sillily. For whatever reason, the gods went "I like you," and help them out. Other people can't seem to get the attention of a god painted blue and jumping up on the roof with a pink pterodactyl sacrifice. Most people fall in between, in my experience.

4) The character(s) of the god(s) in question. If Loki shows an interest in you, smoothing your way is NOT on his To Do list, no matter how much he likes you. That would be too BORING!!! Odin's big in the enigmatic looks and cryptic sayings, unless you're dead. Frigga has a reputation for keeping her mouth shut for a reason, and I've found her even more enigmatic that Odin. If you want a god who will be nice to you given variable 3, I recommend choosing carefully and being very, very, very, very polite.

5) What should happen, which is roughly the orlog/wyrd Tea mentioned. Orlog is... less something laid down by divine mandate and more the weight of the past, the weight of the circumstances of the present, and the weight of yours and others' characters, and how it bears into the future. I don't believe in fate in the Greco-Roman sence, btw, and orlog is not that. Wyrd is orlog on a grand scale.  

[NMMoriaki]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

Er...I don't tend to cast spells.

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Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

Yes...mostly if anything REALLY went my way.

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Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

see above. I thank them as you would thank an old friend

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Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

During the rituals, not "petition" but thankand occasionally ask for their blessings...not a lot of spells in the Anglo-Saxxon Asatru branch.

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If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

Depends on what I want. But, in my experience, the Gods may (or may not) give you a hint HOW you get it...but other than that...work your tail off  

[TheDisreputableDog]

I also asked this question on the House of Netjer boards, and I am fascinated by the contrast. Everyone who has answered it here has basically said " confused Why would I thank or blame anyone, divine or no, for something that's my responsibility either way?" And everyone who has answered it at HoN has basically said "Of course, I thank my gods for everything!"  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

I also asked this question on the House of Netjer boards, and I am fascinated by the contrast. Everyone who has answered it here has basically said " confused Why would I thank or blame anyone, divine or no, for something that's my responsibility either way?" And everyone who has answered it at HoN has basically said "Of course, I thank my gods for everything!"

That is very interesting.

What do you think is the root of the schism?  

[saint dreya]

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of a knowingly cast spell?

i think i would thank them only to the extent that they gifted me with the skills to complete the spell.

i think a spell is really the caster using their skills and their knowledge to accomplish something and not really an outside force.

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for the favorable results of magic you're not sure worked?

again, no. i see it as the responsibility of the caster whether or not it worked.

TheDisreputableDog

Do you thank your gods for any/all/some/no positively resulting acts of will on your part?

acts of will...i don't think so.

i think the only time i would thank a deity for an act of will if i had specifically requested the inspiration and initiative to get up and do it, and i did. and then, i would thank them even if i failed, for they did what i had petitioned of them.

TheDisreputableDog

Do you petition your gods during any/all/some/no rituals?

some, yes. i have asked things of them on occasion, however that is also part of my tradition. we do not simply worship them and give sacrifice. we believe in a two way street: give and take. we give them sacrifices, they give us "help", in one way or another.

TheDisreputableDog

If you want something, do you both pray and use magic, one or the other, neither, or it depends on the situation?

i haven't really done much magic to get what i want. mostly, i'll try the physical acts or "mundane" ways, and if that doesn't work (and i still want it) i'll ask for help.

TheDisreputableDog

And any other points or clarifications on the subject you wish to add.

prayer i really think is asking for a deity, spirit or being for help, while a spell is using one's own abilities to attain a goal.  

[Shorti Rock]

in all of my work, magickal and not, i do what feels right. No 2 actions are the same, so who is to truly say what is right vs what is wrong, and why does it have to be magic vs prayer? can they not be one and the same? one's will is how one accomplishes anything so prayers must be magickal... and in some way magic must be prayer...does that make any sense to anyone? it does to me, so long as we are staying true to ourselves, i dont believe it matters one way or the other....number one rule, "and harm none, do what ye will" live by it...("harm none" includes yourself as well)