"The Old Testament Doesn't Count!"

[Lethkhar]

It has come to my attention that many Christians feel that the Old Testament's laws are outdated and have been swept aside by their saviour Jesus. I personally believe the Old Testament holds just as much wieght as the New Testament. For simplicity, I have a compiled a list of scripture to prove this point.

First of all. let it be known what exactly Jesus is referring to when He refers to "the law":
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


So yes, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament.

1. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

2. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4. "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5. “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Note: #4 and #5 are accounts of Jesus defending himself for not washing his hands by telling the Pharisees that they should kill their children like the Old Testament tells them to.

6. “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35  

[freelance lover]

Jesus tells us that "I came not to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them." I think people who completely disregard the old laws and all of the OT are ridiculous. Whether or not you still recognize them, you need to understand and study the OT to understand our history as Christians.

I don't believe we are bound to the OT rules, however. Jesus' death and ressurrection gives us the forgiveness without having to sacrafic goats and such. Also, you have to consider that a lot of the rules, especially dietary rules and such, were put into place for sanitary reasons. However, we now have better sanitation methods, so we don't really need to abide by such rules.  

[Hasmonean]

Most of the Old Testament is dealing with the nation of Israel specifically, and not humanity at large. Does this mean that the Old Testament applies only to Jews? Of course not! So how does one figure out what applies to him or her? I'm glad you asked!

To understand what the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is saying to you, you have to find the PRINCIPLE behind what is being said. What we see in most of the Old Testament is an example of how Israel or specific individuals applied a principle correctly or incorrectly. For example, Adam and Eve ate from the tree they were told not to. Thus, they chose to incorrectly apply the principles of trusting and obeying God in their specific situation. Does eating fruit off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil affect us today? Of course not! But should the principles of obeying and trusting God affect how we act as Christians? Absolutely!

See, some people get hung up in the Old Testament when they read something like the commandment not to kill, then later on God requiring His people to destroy a nation and kill thousands. What we see here is that the world is complex and not always totally black and white. Sometimes different principles conflict because we are not in a perfect world and we have to have a hierarchy of principles to determine which we follow in a given situation.

So, behind the command to not kill is the principle that God highly values life. But we know from scripture that God also values many other things like holiness, obedience, and the safety of His people. In the cases where God required the killing of people we often see (or it is alluded to in other texts) that the people Israel attacked refused to obey God's basic commands, they were living in unholiness, and were a physical threat to the life and livelihood of God's people. Thus, the cumulative total of these broken principles overrode the principle of the value of life in this specific case.

Now, to understand how this applies to a modern individual, the person is required to do a few things. First, you can't read the Old Testament at face value per se. It was written in Hebrew (and a few portions in Aramaic) to a Jewish audience that used different idioms and had different cultural presuppositions. Thus you have to look past how it applied a particular person(s) and find the moral principle at work. The easiest way to do this is to ask a lot of "why" questions. When you read the story of God making the sun stand still when Gideon was fighting you should be asking, "Why would God hold the sun still for a battle?" And one answer would be that "God is willing to do what it takes to ensure victory in the lives of those that do his work." So, while asking God to stop the sun for you may be in err, it seems reasonable to ask Him to help you overcome any problems you have in your life.

Second, you have to apply those principles to your particular situation. If God does indeed know everything, He understand the situations you are going through, and only expects you to respond based on your situation. Just like God expected the Israelites not to kill, but as a military nation in barbaric times in human history, there were times in which battle was necessary and He took that into account and excused it in many cases. God, through His Spirit inside of you, will help you understand how to apply those principles in your particular life so that you can make the right decisions that He would be pleased with. It is what Paul was talking about when he said to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

So, is the Old Testament still relevant to Christian life? YES! But to make it relevant to you personally requires a little work on your part. You have to find the principles at work in any given text, and then have faith that God will help you apply it to your specific situation. Well, I hope I made sense in this post, LOL. If you have questions or comments please make sure you have read it in its entirety first. Thanks!  

[Lethkhar]

Both of you have missed #3c, where the Bible clearly says that none of it is up to interpretation:

Lethkhar

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

 

[Lady of Serenity]

^^; The Old Testament has 39 ( If I remember correctly ) out of the 66 books of the Bible, yet it doesn't count. Riiight. ( by the way, please note that I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else...just thought I'd get that out there before I went any further. )

Well...I don't really have much time to elaborate, but Galatians does a really good job talking about the whole laws issue.

Quote:

Galatians Chapter 3

The Law and Faith in Christ

1 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. 2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4 Have you experienced[a] so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”[d] 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”[e] 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”[f]

13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[g] 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised[h] Holy Spirit through faith.

The Law and God’s Promise

15 Dear brothers and sisters, here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. 16 God gave the promises to Abraham and his child.[j] And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,[k]” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ. 17 This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise.

18 For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

God’s Children through Faith

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

26 For you are all children[m] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[n] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[o] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

Footnotes:

a. Galatians 3:4 Or Have you suffered.
b. Galatians 3:6 Gen 15:6.
c. Galatians 3:8 Gen 12:3; 18:18; 22:18.
d. Galatians 3:10 Deut 27:26.
e. Galatians 3:11 Hab 2:4.
f. Galatians 3:12 Lev 18:5.
g. Galatians 3:13 Deut 21:23 (Greek version).
h. Galatians 3:14 Some manuscripts read the blessing of the.
i. Galatians 3:15 Greek Brothers.
j. Galatians 3:16 Greek seed; also in 3:16c, 19. See notes on Gen 12:7 and 13:15.
k. Galatians 3:16 Greek seeds.
l. Galatians 3:21 Some manuscripts read and the promises?
m. Galatians 3:26 Greek sons.
n. Galatians 3:27 Greek have put on Christ.
o. Galatians 3:28 Greek Jew or Greek.
p. Galatians 3:29 Greek seed.

To read Chapters 4-6, Just click HERE

But yeah, I will quickly add this. Isn't it funny how Paul quotes scripture from the Old Testament as if it's valid or something? How weird is that, eh?
( xd Man...it's so hard to control that sarcasm... )

Well, hopefully those verses helped. I have to go for now ( it seems like I'm always in a hurry every time I post here... ) , but umm...yeah.

cool Oh, and on a random note...Happy 4th of July everyone! Be safe, and have a great week.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Lethkhar

Both of you have missed #3c, where the Bible clearly says that none of it is up to interpretation:

Lethkhar

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Ah, but we're not talking all about prophecy. We're talking about the OT as a whole. Most of the OT is pretty cut and dry. The prophecy in it is harder to understand because of when it was written, and who it was written for.

I see the OT as a history book. Obviously, if you catch your wife cheating on you today, you're not going to drag her and her lover into the middle of the street and expect the whole town to help you stone them both to death. In fact, that sort of thing is greatly frowned upon in our society. The same with rules such as not putting meat and cheese together and not eating this grand list of foods. It's important to know what kinds of things led up to Christ and his teachings. Because when Jesus came, he told us that he was here to completele the teachings of the OT. So as our society changed, we weren't held so closely to the rules of 2000+ years ago. Now we don't have to worry about animal sacrifice, we can eat whatever we want (as told by God in a dream to... Peter? Paul? one of them), and all of the prophecy in the OT has already come to pass. There are still good lessons to be learned, but really, it just helps us to know where we're coming from as a people, if you will.  

[Lethkhar]

Lady of Serenity

^^; The Old Testament has 39 ( If I remember correctly ) out of the 66 books of the Bible, yet it doesn't count. Riiight. ( by the way, please note that I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else...just thought I'd get that out there before I went any further. )

Well...I don't really have much time to elaborate, but Galatians does a really good job talking about the whole laws issue.

Quote:

Galatians Chapter 3

The Law and Faith in Christ

1 Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross. 2 Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3 How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4 Have you experienced[a] so much for nothing? Surely it was not in vain, was it?

5 I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ.

6 In the same way, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” 7 The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

8 What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”[c] 9 So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.

10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God’s Book of the Law.”[d] 11 So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”[e] 12 This way of faith is very different from the way of law, which says, “It is through obeying the law that a person has life.”[f]

13 But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[g] 14 Through Christ Jesus, God has blessed the Gentiles with the same blessing he promised to Abraham, so that we who are believers might receive the promised[h] Holy Spirit through faith.

The Law and God’s Promise

15 Dear brothers and sisters, here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. 16 God gave the promises to Abraham and his child.[j] And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,[k]” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ. 17 This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise.

18 For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people. 20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.

21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises?[l] Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

God’s Children through Faith

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

26 For you are all children[m] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[n] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[o] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children[p] of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

Footnotes:

a. Galatians 3:4 Or Have you suffered.
b. Galatians 3:6 Gen 15:6.
c. Galatians 3:8 Gen 12:3; 18:18; 22:18.
d. Galatians 3:10 Deut 27:26.
e. Galatians 3:11 Hab 2:4.
f. Galatians 3:12 Lev 18:5.
g. Galatians 3:13 Deut 21:23 (Greek version).
h. Galatians 3:14 Some manuscripts read the blessing of the.
i. Galatians 3:15 Greek Brothers.
j. Galatians 3:16 Greek seed; also in 3:16c, 19. See notes on Gen 12:7 and 13:15.
k. Galatians 3:16 Greek seeds.
l. Galatians 3:21 Some manuscripts read and the promises?
m. Galatians 3:26 Greek sons.
n. Galatians 3:27 Greek have put on Christ.
o. Galatians 3:28 Greek Jew or Greek.
p. Galatians 3:29 Greek seed.

To read Chapters 4-6, Just click HERE

But yeah, I will quickly add this. Isn't it funny how Paul quotes scripture from the Old Testament as if it's valid or something? How weird is that, eh?
( xd Man...it's so hard to control that sarcasm... )

Well, hopefully those verses helped. I have to go for now ( it seems like I'm always in a hurry every time I post here... ) , but umm...yeah.

cool Oh, and on a random note...Happy 4th of July everyone! Be safe, and have a great week.
Cool, we agree with each other for once. 3nodding  

[Lethkhar]

ryuu_chan

Lethkhar

Both of you have missed #3c, where the Bible clearly says that none of it is up to interpretation:

Lethkhar

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Ah, but we're not talking all about prophecy. We're talking about the OT as a whole. Most of the OT is pretty cut and dry. The prophecy in it is harder to understand because of when it was written, and who it was written for.

I see the OT as a history book. Obviously, if you catch your wife cheating on you today, you're not going to drag her and her lover into the middle of the street and expect the whole town to help you stone them both to death. In fact, that sort of thing is greatly frowned upon in our society. The same with rules such as not putting meat and cheese together and not eating this grand list of foods. It's important to know what kinds of things led up to Christ and his teachings. Because when Jesus came, he told us that he was here to completele the teachings of the OT. So as our society changed, we weren't held so closely to the rules of 2000+ years ago. Now we don't have to worry about animal sacrifice, we can eat whatever we want (as told by God in a dream to... Peter? Paul? one of them), and all of the prophecy in the OT has already come to pass. There are still good lessons to be learned, but really, it just helps us to know where we're coming from as a people, if you will.

You're completely ignoring the scripture I posted.

Christ did not abolish any of the OT's laws. He said so himself. Hell, he criticized the Pharisees for not killing their disobedient children.  

[OnoBoei]

OT counts too because...*uh..you seem to have mentioned the reasons...^^*  

[s0prano42_x3]

You can't completely disregard the old testament, but bits and pieces are a bit outdated...  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Lethkhar

You're completely ignoring the scripture I posted.

Christ did not abolish any of the OT's laws. He said so himself. Hell, he criticized the Pharisees for not killing their disobedient children.

No, I'm pointing out that Jesus said he completed the prophecy AND the law. Which means that, as Christians, we are no longer forced to do crazy things to atone for our misdeeds. Jesus is all the sacrifice we need. I'm pointing out sections of the NT that nullify pieces of the OT.

As for the laws and such, again, we can't be expected to do things like that today in our society. If you stone someone to death, you're getting at least life in prison, if not the looney bin, and perhaps a lethal injection yourself. As was said before, you have to take the HEART of the OT today, not literal. If God still wanted us cutting out eyes, he never would have let humans advance to the point where judicial systems said that was a bad idea. But I am a bit curious about where Jesus said for the Pharisees to kill. I don't remember that at all.  

[Lethkhar]

ryuu_chan

Lethkhar

You're completely ignoring the scripture I posted.

Christ did not abolish any of the OT's laws. He said so himself. Hell, he criticized the Pharisees for not killing their disobedient children.

No, I'm pointing out that Jesus said he completed the prophecy AND the law. Which means that, as Christians, we are no longer forced to do crazy things to atone for our misdeeds. Jesus is all the sacrifice we need. I'm pointing out sections of the NT that nullify pieces of the OT.

As for the laws and such, again, we can't be expected to do things like that today in our society.

And that's the point I'm making.

As a Christian, you are expected to follow all of the laws in the OT, not just the ones that suit your lifestyle.

Quote:

If you stone someone to death, you're getting at least life in prison, if not the looney bin, and perhaps a lethal injection yourself. As was said before, you have to take the HEART of the OT today, not literal.

Please, divulge your vast knowledge unto me. What is the metaphorical meaning behind this:

Leviticus 20:16

If a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Quote:

If God still wanted us cutting out eyes, he never would have let humans advance to the point where judicial systems said that was a bad idea.

How do you know that?

Quote:

But I am a bit curious about where Jesus said for the Pharisees to kill. I don't remember that at all.

Obviously, you did not read the first post. neutral

Matthew 15:1-7

15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you...

Please try to at least read the first post next time.  

[Hasmonean]

I didn't miss 3c, I ready your arguments twice before I posted. There is a huge literary difference between history, poetry, doctrinal teaching, law, and the other literary styles in the Old Testament and your mentioned "prophecy."  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

I did read all your posts. I don't, however, remember them all the next day or so when I reply. However, I also believe that the question of this post was whether or not the OT laws still apply. Since Jesus came, Christians don't have to apply every single little dot and tittle to their everyday lives. A lot of laws are still in effect. Don't murder, don't sleep with animals, and even the military still has rules like no sodomy (told to me by a Nay Seal buddy). Now Jesus has BECOME the law, the sacrifice and the judgement. That all has been taken out of our hands as Christians. Yes, we still need to know where this all originated, but we're not held under penalty of death anymore. Just because you believe that God doesn't exist, you're in a Christian guild. So I believe it fully when I said that if God still wanted us going "a eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" people wouldn't be getting kicked out of bars and put in jail for attempting such a thing because it's so against our culture. And not just ours, but almost everyone in the world's. In short, the OT is history. It's good to know where we came from, and how we got where we are today, but since the death and resurrection of Jesus, I don't think we're held to the absolute letter of the law. Be a good person. Don't do things that are obviously against the Spirit of God. And after Jesus was taken into heaven, the Holy Spirit came and stayed with all Christians. THAT'S our guiding light.

I'm going to be off for a few days, so y'all can argue this out without me. I'll be back when I can. Peace be with you.  

[Lethkhar]

Hasmonean

I didn't miss 3c, I ready your arguments twice before I posted. There is a huge literary difference between history, poetry, doctrinal teaching, law, and the other literary styles in the Old Testament and your mentioned "prophecy."

Please enlighten me and also provide a Biblical quote that outlines all of the literary styles found in the Buble as a sort of guide.

Or...Could that perhaps be up to interpretation as well? eek