I know Gardner founded Wicca in 1954, but...

[With Motion]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits. Can someone help me out please?

“I realised that I had stumbled upon something interesting; but I was half-initiated before the word, ‘Wica’ which they used hit me like a thunderbolt, and I knew where I was, and that the Old Religion still existed. And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”  

[ShadowSharrow]

What about it ?  

[maenad nuri]

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits. Can someone help me out please?

“I realised that I had stumbled upon something interesting; but I was half-initiated before the word, ‘Wica’ which they used hit me like a thunderbolt, and I knew where I was, and that the Old Religion still existed. And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

Gardner published in 1954. He was a part of various occultic and witchcraft groups before that/  

[With Motion]

Nuri

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits. Can someone help me out please?

“I realised that I had stumbled upon something interesting; but I was half-initiated before the word, ‘Wica’ which they used hit me like a thunderbolt, and I knew where I was, and that the Old Religion still existed. And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

Gardner published in 1954. He was a part of various occultic and witchcraft groups before that/

I know that much, but in the quote I think he's saying that they (the initiators of whatever religion) used the label "Wica" for the religion, first. This would mean that Wicca is older than 1954.

Am I misinterpreting something?  

[scorplett]

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

 

[With Motion]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.  

[ShadowSharrow]

[Eshmasesh]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.

Ok..

There were things he could not write about as he had sworn not to reveal them....  

[TheDisreputableDog]

ShadowSharrow

[Eshmasesh]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.

Ok..

There were things he could not write about as he had sworn not to reveal them....

To me, that doesn't seem to be the point, nor answer Eshmasesh's question.

That quote suggests a few possibilities:

1. The party line that Wicca was invented with Gardner is not correct and it actually is ye Olde Religion.

2. Gardner fudged things in his materials to give himself an air of historical legitimacy.

3. Just because the word Wica was used in occult societies predating Gardner's publications does not necessarily mean that these societies were either Wiccan or carrying forward in unbroken tradition since the Burning Times. After all, Seax-Wica != Wicca despite similar word choice, and the type of people who participated in occult societies were probably also the type who could look up an old, unpopular language and steal a word to describe themselves--or they pulled a word out of a hat and it was only after the fact that its "etymology" was mapped onto any historical language.

I don't have any other resources with which to make a claim as to which of these is most likely.  

[scorplett]

[Eshmasesh]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.

The point is that you cannot get an explanation that fits because, just like Gardner himself, Wiccans take Oaths that will not allow them to reveal certain things outside of certain circumstances...
You wont get an answer from any properly lineaged Wiccans on this one unfortunatley...
You can make up your own mind, figure things out in your own way, and if you are a seeker and may at some point in your life recieve training and initiation from a proper Wiccan coven, you may become privvy to such things.

The base-line is. This is in the realms of oath and you cannot expect a clear answer that would fit the terms of this forum and still hold true the Oaths that are taken.  

[Sir_Catherine]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.

The point is that you cannot get an explanation that fits because, just like Gardner himself, Wiccans take Oaths that will not allow them to reveal certain things outside of certain circumstances...
You wont get an answer from any properly lineaged Wiccans on this one unfortunatley...
You can make up your own mind, figure things out in your own way, and if you are a seeker and may at some point in your life recieve training and initiation from a proper Wiccan coven, you may become privvy to such things.

The base-line is. This is in the realms of oath and you cannot expect a clear answer that would fit the terms of this forum and still hold true the Oaths that are taken.

If I may, Gardner himself in this quote mentions the people he was with using the term "wica" and it is being asked if this is true and valid.

I don't think [Eshmasesh] is asking for information protected by oaths. It is a valid question how old the term "wica" is and how it has been used.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

ShadowSharrow

[Eshmasesh]

scorplett

[Eshmasesh]

I can't really find an explanation for this quote that fits.

May I suggest:

[Eshmasesh]

And so I found myself in the Circle, and there took the usual oath of secrecy, which bound me not to reveal certain things.”

I don't get it.

Ok..

There were things he could not write about as he had sworn not to reveal them....

To me, that doesn't seem to be the point, nor answer Eshmasesh's question.

That quote suggests a few possibilities:

1. The party line that Wicca was invented with Gardner is not correct and it actually is ye Olde Religion.

2. Gardner fudged things in his materials to give himself an air of historical legitimacy.

3. Just because the word Wica was used in occult societies predating Gardner's publications does not necessarily mean that these societies were either Wiccan or carrying forward in unbroken tradition since the Burning Times. After all, Seax-Wica != Wicca despite similar word choice, and the type of people who participated in occult societies were probably also the type who could look up an old, unpopular language and steal a word to describe themselves--or they pulled a word out of a hat and it was only after the fact that its "etymology" was mapped onto any historical language.

I don't have any other resources with which to make a claim as to which of these is most likely.

Pish. No wonder I don't post anymore. Don't need to. wink

My personal vote is for the Third Option, especially given the further information he cites, such as:
"The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones', and they also fulfilled the function of surgeons, doctors, midwives and psychiatrists. It was these people and their followers who came to be called 'Witches'"

Wica- the title, and Wicca the Religion being two different things and all.  

[Telmeneliel]

Eshmasesh

Love the siggy line.. rofl...  

[TatteredAngel]

It's late and I'm tired and punchy, but I figured I'd fire at least a bit of this off while I'm thinking of it.

If we're asking about the terms Wica or Wicca or what-have-you, and their roots and usage before Gardner's Wicca, I can help at least on the linguistic rooting. The word "Wicca" dates as far back as Old English, although in OE it's gendered, with "Wicca" being masculine and "Wicce" being feminine. It's the root of modern "witch." ((And actually a lot less fun to translate the passages where these are used than I first imagined. Oh for those hours of my life back.))

I think it could well be that people were still using "Wicca" or "Wica" and calling themselves that-- but not necessarily as a title for an encompassing religion. The origin of the word is flat out witchcraft, as opposed to a specific set of beliefs.

Not entirely related or anything but interesting to note, I could find no evidence that anyone practicing what might be construed as witchcraft during the writing of the OE texts on it actually would have referred to themselves as this. I'm highly skeptical that they would have, seeing as it was a nice catch-all for magical things the church disapproved of and linked with devil.  

[TeaDidikai]

TatteredAngel

I think it could well be that people were still using "Wicca" or "Wica" and calling themselves that-- but not necessarily as a title for an encompassing religion. The origin of the word is flat out witchcraft, as opposed to a specific set of beliefs.

Very true.

Quote:

Not entirely related or anything but interesting to note, I could find no evidence that anyone practicing what might be construed as witchcraft during the writing of the OE texts on it actually would have referred to themselves as this. I'm highly skeptical that they would have, seeing as it was a nice catch-all for magical things the church disapproved of and linked with devil.

I know there was a word that meant something akin to Miracle Worker. sweatdrop  

[TatteredAngel]

Teadidikai

Quote:

Not entirely related or anything but interesting to note, I could find no evidence that anyone practicing what might be construed as witchcraft during the writing of the OE texts on it actually would have referred to themselves as this. I'm highly skeptical that they would have, seeing as it was a nice catch-all for magical things the church disapproved of and linked with devil.

I know there was a word that meant something akin to Miracle Worker. sweatdrop

How neat. I'll have to see if I can hunt that up sometime. What really interested me were the number of words used for magic, and the fact that two or three words for it would be used as if referring to separate things, but without explanation of what separated them. "Wiccecræft," "wiglunga," and "drycræft" all refer to magic (not church-sanctioned), but there is little to distinguish them.

My favorite passage was one about auguries and casting lots to determine something, written by Ælfric, a rather stodgy monk. Casting lots to forsee the future was sorcery and a big no-no. However, casting lots to best divide property was apparently frequently a good idea, and not sorcery.