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Attempts to define 'goth' have been flying thick and fast lately, and I'd like to remind people that there is no one right answer. There is no one definition of the word goth. It's been used many times, to mean many different things.

The goths were a northern tribe that invaded Rome (and also Spain).

'Gothic' was a term applied to late medieval architecture by bigoted and very ill-informed 'Enlightenment'-era historians, who thought these buildings were created far earlier than they actually were, and also poked fun at them for being 'barbarous.'

The first use of the word to define a subculture was in the late 1700's, when antiquarians started actually appreciating medieval arichitecture. Back then, a 'goth' was someone who enjoyed dark, romantic literature, had a fondness for ruins, and maybe built their house in gothic style.

Toward the Victorian era, architects got more interested in medieval-styled art that looked authentic, not fantastical. A 'goth' became someone with a scholarly interest in the era.

Many sources (Wikipedia included) claim that the modern goth subculture has its roots in punk. Personally, I think those roots go back far earlier than modern music genres. Earlier gothic movements had a huge influence on things like the modern horror genre, the ideas expressed in a lot of goth music, and even the wearing of black. Without those early gothic novels, the subculture as we know it would not exist.

So yes, it's valid to say that a goth is a person who loves goth music. But it's equally valid to apply the term to someone with a generally 'dark' aesthetic, or someone who adores medieval art.

Wow. That's cool. I knew about the tribe that sacked Rome and the architecture, but I didn't know that back then goth was used to describe people who were interested in the architecture or art. Neat.

tell me about it. though my personal disgust is aimed at the people just trying to stand up and say: "hey world i'm a Goth!". i doubt anyone really cares. if you are then it is something that you yourself know and accept, not something you should tout around to get attention. *rolls eyes*

how does this factor into the whole "trying to define Goth" thing? well the ones who are typically saying "hey world i'm a Goth!" then add on to that by saying "i'm Goth because of this, this, and that. and that's what Goth is."

if you're Goth then be proud of it. there isn't any need to advertise it if you know who you are. if you just realized that you are Goth then celebrate it. but never, ever, ever use it as a crutch to make yourself a victim to society at large.

the reason why i mention this is because i've seen A LOT of whining around here lately. no one really understands that because you're different and don't fit neatly into somebody's nice little world you're going to be ostracized because of it. so what? goes with the territory. if you don't have a whole lot of people backing you up in something then you have no power and thusly are the weaker. people being people they'll pick on the easy targets they know won't lash out at them (or if the easy targets do try to extract retribution they know it won't harm the popular ones much) just to prove how superior they are to others.

*sigh* sorry folks i just got tired with all the whining and needed to get that off of my chest. *takes a deep breath*

okay Faren ish better now mrgreen

Actually you should give more detail on the post-punk Gothic Rock scene. In my opinion, it almost single handedly shaped what Goth is today, in regards to cultural attitude, fashion, art, etc.

In reference to the poll-

When one does as Err does enough times, one becomes as Err is.

History of a lot of things intrigue me. smile

thats really interesting. i knew that there was something about an ancient race from germany, but its really interesting that goth has that many roots.