Evil Within Paganism

[Sound Doxa]

I'm wondering what is "evil" within Paganism?
Are certain feelings or actions defined as evil?
Do some religions have evil entities?
What are the evil entities? Can you see them, or are they invisible? How do you fight them or get rid of them?
What happens to evil?
How do you tell if something's evil?
Will you be able to link me to some information or texts describing your evil, or backing up your assertions about it?


In the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church, evil is hatred, since it is not love, and some other things including the tongue, jealousy, selfish ambition,boasting in arrogance, and making oaths. There are also things defined as,"of darkness", even those these things aren't quite defined as "evil", the sentiment always feels the same to me.
In the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church there are also evil beings, demons, who have the power to possess people and make them do bad things. To fight the evil, there's the armor of God, and there's also prayer.

So, what's evil within Paganism? (& refer back to above questions)  

[Deoridhe]

There is no evil, that I know of, in Asatru. The closest is Surt, the leader of another group of beings, who seeks to destroy the Aesir (the gods, for all intents and purposes). He only partly succeeds with the help of some of Loki's progeny, though it's likely said progeny had their own reasons for wanting some of the gods dead. Although Ragnorak is often presented as a unified war, there are as many nuances as in any conflict.

There are things one usually shouldn't do. In Havomal, for example, excessive drinking is insulted, as is speaking when one is ignorant and/or foolish. By and large, however, the rules for humans were determined for humans by humans; the Althing, which was a gathering of local leaders and all around smart people, not only rules on actions taken by the citizens, it also laid down laws and settled disputes. An example of the weight of change between then and now is how murder is handled; then, a huge fine would be leveled on the perpetrator - enough so that usually the entire family had to chip in; it was called Weirgild. Now, there is a court trial and the person is sentanced to prison or death according to different types of murder, with mitigating circumstances weighed in. The culture then, lacking prisons, couldn't have done what we do now. The culture now, lacking cohesiveness and smallness of numbers, can't do what they did then.

This is why human's laws are human's problems.

For myself, I believe there are evil acts, but very few evil people. The closest to evil I've ever encountered is individuals with the anti-social personality disorder, whenther they break laws or not. That level of objectification of anyone but the self I find to be evil and to lead to evil acts.  

[Sound Doxa]

Thank you for the fast reply Deoridhe!
One thing I'm curious of, and it's propably are really really stupid question, but what are Loki's progeny? I've never heard of them or that term.  

[Deoridhe]

SoundDoctrine

Thank you for the fast reply Deoridhe!
One thing I'm curious of, and it's propably are really really stupid question, but what are Loki's progeny? I've never heard of them or that term.

According to some beings, Hel. The others are Sleipnir, Fenriswolf, the midgard serpent, and others I'm likely forgetting.  

[CuAnnan]

Good, evil.
These are view points.
They are absolutes that change depending on who you're talking to.
Did Loki believe he was in the wrong?
Did Saddam Hussein believe he was in the wrong?
Did any of the people who do these things think they are doing wrong?
Without an objective measure of good or evil, we have no means to gauge them.
Neo paganism, from what I've seen, stresses personal responsibility over virtuous/virtueless behaviour.  

[Pelta]

I'm going to agree with the local Celtic Hound.

Good and Evil are entirely subjective. They also depend on circumstances and situations.

Some may say violence is evil, and in some situations I would agree. But when someone gets slapped for being a s**t that violence is good... From my perspective. I'm sure the recipient of the slap doesn't like it that much.

How can there be any sort of objective good or evil when the circumstances change based on the viewpoint?

I could see certain spirits as "evil" because their actions are opposed to mine. However I can also understand their motivations, that they understand their actions as "good." So where can you draw the line? It is practically impossible.

I doubt there are any purely "good" or "evil" entities, just as there are no purely "good" or "evil" humans.  

[Fiddlers Green]

I'm going to disagree.

Good and Evil are not subjective at all.

They are simply conceptual.
And as humans rely upon senses which are far from perfect, perceiving Good and Evil becomes far different.

Perceptual Good and Evil are subjective.

Also, I don't believe circumstances change based on the viewpoint, just what portion of the circumstances are considered.

Basically, In my accord, Good and Evil are Objective and Conceptual...
Now, since we don't live in a conceptual realm, they can become skewed, and are not pure, in this world.  

[jaden kendam]

Although you may hear about evil from forune tellers like SB, in Spiritualism, there really is not a thing as evil. Some people do lectures on it, but these are also the same people who say that we need to accept Jesus as God and thus are not knowing of Spiritualism but are more like Christian Spiritualists. These same people talk of hell and the devil.

However, there is a principle that might let one believe that no one is truly evil. "We believe the doorway to reformation is always open to any soul, here or hereafter." Which means, though some do not like to hear it, but even Hitler could change and progress if he so chose.  

[Sound Doxa]

Cuchullain

Good, evil.
These are view points.
They are absolutes that change depending on who you're talking to.
Did Loki believe he was in the wrong?
Did Saddam Hussein believe he was in the wrong?
Did any of the people who do these things think they are doing wrong?
Without an objective measure of good or evil, we have no means to gauge them.

I can understand that viewpoint.
Like I showed in my first post, there are ways the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church can objectively measure good and evil. What's not "in the light" is "of darkness", and the things outlined in the Scriptures are the things that are "evil" or "dark".
So I was wondering if there were religions within Paganism that had objective ways of measuring and defining evil, I wasn't asserting that there had to be objective evil or anything.

Quote:

Neo paganism, from what I've seen, stresses personal responsibility over virtuous/virtueless behaviour.

Oh, okay.

missmagpie

I'm going to agree with the local Celtic Hound.

Good and Evil are entirely subjective. They also depend on circumstances and situations.

Some may say violence is evil, and in some situations I would agree. But when someone gets slapped for being a s**t that violence is good... From my perspective. I'm sure the recipient of the slap doesn't like it that much.

How can there be any sort of objective good or evil when the circumstances change based on the viewpoint?

I could see certain spirits as "evil" because their actions are opposed to mine. However I can also understand their motivations, that they understand their actions as "good." So where can you draw the line? It is practically impossible.

I doubt there are any purely "good" or "evil" entities, just as there are no purely "good" or "evil" humans.

In regards to the questions, "How can there be objective good or evil when the circumstances change based on the viewpoint" and "Where can you draw the line?"
Really, I was wondering if any religion within Paganism might've had guidelines for these sort of things, like how Christianity has guidelines. I was wondering if the religions themselves said,"such and such is evil".

Fiddlers Green

I'm going to disagree.

Good and Evil are not subjective at all.

They are simply conceptual.
And as humans rely upon senses which are far from perfect, perceiving Good and Evil becomes far different.

Perceptual Good and Evil are subjective.

Also, I don't believe circumstances change based on the viewpoint, just what portion of the circumstances are considered.

Basically, In my accord, Good and Evil are Objective and Conceptual...
Now, since we don't live in a conceptual realm, they can become skewed, and are not pure, in this world.

So, how do you personally tell what's the objective good and the objective evil? Is there a way to see past the conceptual realm, or can you never tell?

jaden kendam

Although you may hear about evil from forune tellers like SB, in Spiritualism, there really is not a thing as evil. Some people do lectures on it, but these are also the same people who say that we need to accept Jesus as God and thus are not knowing of Spiritualism but are more like Christian Spiritualists. These same people talk of hell and the devil.

However, there is a principle that might let one believe that no one is truly evil. "We believe the doorway to reformation is always open to any soul, here or hereafter." Which means, though some do not like to hear it, but even Hitler could change and progress if he so chose.

So, even though no one is truely evil, since they can always change, can you tell if their actions are evil? Like, if someone does evil at one point in there life, is there a guideline for what this evil would be?  

[quantum_leaper]

SoundDoctrine

Cuchullain

Good, evil.
These are view points.
They are absolutes that change depending on who you're talking to.
Did Loki believe he was in the wrong?
Did Saddam Hussein believe he was in the wrong?
Did any of the people who do these things think they are doing wrong?
Without an objective measure of good or evil, we have no means to gauge them.

I can understand that viewpoint.
Like I showed in my first post, there are ways my religion can objectively measure good and evil. What's not "in the light" is "of darkness", and the things outlined in the Scriptures are the things that are "evil" or "dark".
So I was wondering if there were religions within Paganism that had objective ways of measuring and defining evil, I wasn't asserting that there had to be objective evil or anything.

Disputed.

I would argue that it is impossible for a religion to truely objectively measure good and evil since the religion itself would be biased.

The Bible may say "X is evil" but after how many translations and interepations of such? (There are people on this forum much, much, much more able that i am to make that point

May i ask which exact branch Chrisitianity you are and which exact version of the bible you follow?

Without quoting the rest of your post it sounds like you are looking for the answer from the grand Codified Pagan belief hand book.

There isn't one. There may be books on various different religions and various sacred texts(Cant think of any off the top of my head). But there isnt one which is llike the bible which is basically the big book of Chrisitanity.

So without something written down by someone claiming its for a religion its hard to say what exactly is what. People can debate and argue all they want( Which they do) but ultimately its all down to perpectives.  

[Sound Doxa]

quantum_leaper

SoundDoctrine

Cuchullain

Good, evil.
These are view points.
They are absolutes that change depending on who you're talking to.
Did Loki believe he was in the wrong?
Did Saddam Hussein believe he was in the wrong?
Did any of the people who do these things think they are doing wrong?
Without an objective measure of good or evil, we have no means to gauge them.

I can understand that viewpoint.
Like I showed in my first post, there are ways my religion can objectively measure good and evil. What's not "in the light" is "of darkness", and the things outlined in the Scriptures are the things that are "evil" or "dark".
So I was wondering if there were religions within Paganism that had objective ways of measuring and defining evil, I wasn't asserting that there had to be objective evil or anything.

Disputed.

I would argue that it is impossible for a religion to truely objectively measure good and evil since the religion itself would be biased.

I don't care if the religion is biased, since I just want to learn about the religion's beliefs. I'm not looking to find out what is evil, I'm looking to find out what sort of things people believe to be evil.

Quote:

The Bible may say "X is evil" but after how many translations and interepations of such? (There are people on this forum much, much, much more able that i am to make that point

If you'd like to dispute my specific translations of the way I understood the Bible, please go ahead and do so. I didn't translate from the original Greek like I should have. I was in a rush when I made that topic. I believe and accept that the original copies of the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God. This is not something I want to question. Of course, there is a possiblility of my belief being wrong, but that's not the point of this discussion. It is simply my personal belief, and I'm sorry if I came off as saying,"the Bible is the absolute truth", my position is that I believe tht the Bible is the absolute truth.

Quote:

May i ask which exact branch Chrisitianity you are

Missouri Synod Lutheran.

Quote:

and which exact version of the bible you follow?

New American Standard.

Quote:

Without quoting the rest of your post it sounds like you are looking for the answer from the grand Codified Pagan belief hand book.

Not really.
I understand that Paganism is an umbrella term for all the religions outside of the three top Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.
I'm more looking for texts from each specific religion located within Paganism, if they have any. This is not mandatory, because I also understand that parts of many Paganistic religions come from UPG, or that all of a religion could coem from UPG, or maybe even hearsay, or spoken tradition. I'm open to all possibilities, because I'm aware that I'm basically clueless when it comes to Paganism.

Quote:

There isn't one. There may be books on various different religions and various sacred texts(Cant think of any off the top of my head). But there isnt one which is llike the bible which is basically the big book of Chrisitanity.

Well, in addition to what I've said above, I know that Satanism pulls from Levay, Wicca from Gardner, and etc. I'm not really looking for a book, since it's not necessary, I'd just appreciate to hear about some sort of guideline. The guideline does not have to come from a text, it can coem from just your personal belief.

Quote:

So without something written down by someone claiming its for a religion its hard to say what exactly is what. People can debate and argue all they want( Which they do) but ultimately its all down to perpectives.

That I understand.
My point is,"What is your perspective?"
This topic isn't for people to objectively say,"This is evil!", it's for people to say,"My religion holds that this is evil, because of such and such." or for them to say,"My religion has this evil entity, I know it's evil because of such and such." or for them to say,"My religion does not define evil." or just something along those lines.
Am I making more sense now?  

[in the flicker.]

to decide whether or not there is evil in paganism, it's necessary to define the attributes that make evil evil.

i believe that evil (just like holiness) is a matter of perspective. i'm sure that (almost) every dictator that tried to take over the world believed they were doing the right thing. for example: country A takes over country B because they are "heathens" and they need to be saved. that sounds righteous enough to me. i wonder if country B feels that way? probably not. they probably think that country A is completely out of bounds and are, in effect, "evil." this is how it works in my head mrgreen

with that being said: i believe that evil exists. it's not definite, its subjective. to me, beings/actions that INTEND to cause harm in any way, shape or form are (usually) on the "dark side." but for me, i add one more stipulation in order to call something/someone "bad" or "evil." if they realize what they did was hurtful AND they feel remorse/compelled to correct/make up for it, i cannot bring myself to construe it as "evil." then it's a mistake. those happen. mistakes kill people, but that doesn't make them evil.

edit: oh crap i didn't relate this directly to religion sweatdrop ....i live my religion, so...i sometimes forget. pretend i related directly to paganism mrgreen  

[Doctrix]

I elected to choose the "subjective" option, but what I mean is that depends on what your definition of evil is. If evil is simply something that causes harm, then there are things that can possibly cause harm all over my everyday life. I'm want to say that my religion has more of an ethical concept of evil (in the sense of harmful consequences) and the moral concept, or lack therof, is left up for the individual to decide, but I may be just uneccesarily mincing terms here.  

[TeaDidikai]

I hold Good and Evil to exist as an objective reality, but are not dualistic in nature.