Punk versus Goth versus Emo versus Scene

[Clash of Vision]

Hello, folks. This is an extention of a previous thread that I thought should be placed in the extended discussion section. I realized that it was sitting in the general, and it's much too hefty. If you'd like to see the original article follow this URL: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=6641557

Quote:

I can agree with that article to an extent. It serves it purposes as a condensed, layman's (nothing implied by that) examination of these subcultures. That said, I think it would take a book to cover indepth the distinction between the subcultures. Well, actually I'd like explore the music genres these subcultures came out of, then to distinguish between Emo and Scene. This is how I see things (right now, haha):

Punk: It was a genre born out of some rather shocking bands. Consider the Velvet Underground: its lyrics were about drugs. One can even look at the antics of Iggy Pop and the cross-dressing New York Dolls. Some considered Patty Smith punk with her attitude and poetry-infused music that talked about the most blatant things. The Ramones were a pop band who blatantly borrowed from 50's image and pop with a lyrical and slight image twist. Don't forget the MC5, who were all about being countercultural. It wasn't necessarily stupid, it was just simplistic, primal rock'n'roll that arose out of shock, theatrics, attitude, pop sensabilities, attitude, and rebellion. (Those are the main themes I've drawn at least.) Punk became what most people know about it in part due to the explosion in the UK, *and* the brutal and often militant punk (hence the name) genre Hardcore (aka. Bad Brains, Black Flag, and so on).

Goth: An article I posted earlier states a stance that Goth existed for centuries. I think in truth Goth as subculture-defined didn't exist until it spun off from Post-Punk music and perhaps what was elements of glam and the New Romantics movement. Post-Punk was an opening of avenues as far as sound went, stepping beyond the bloated corpse of Punk (which had initially been experimental in its own way by going primitive as opposed to many of the complex bands that were popular then). Then you take into account the theatrics of glam, and the fashion and romance of the New Romantics. Give it a darker, introverted tone, and early batcave goth was 'realized.' Oh, and don't forget the Post-Punk influence of music. Again, this is all something I'm still exploring, but yeah. (Added On: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and the Cure are all example of bands that "stepped over the bloated corpse of Punk." Siouxsie and the Banshees were themselves a Punk band to begin with, using dark lyrics and guitar riffs. It might also be noted she was also very influential with the way many gothic girls and guys wore their makeup (which guys wearing makeup was a splinter from glam and gender-bending rebellions). Then you had Joy Division whose overall mood and musical style affected many gothic bands to come. Top on all those the Cure, whose combination of Synths and introspective lyrics and mood influenced others. There were many others, but those are a) three of my biggest personal faves...so there's some bias, and b) there's a pretty extensive list. I guess I could also list the Damned, Specimen, Christian Death, 45 Grave, whose various styles (both theatrics and musically) has also influenced the overall genre and various subgenres.)

Emo: Emo was actually a musical genre born out of the Hardcore that came from Punk. It could also have been called "Post-Hardcore" with bands like Husker Du and Fugazi (and other bands created by Ian MacKaye). I believe it was best stated by an artist describing themselves - I don't remember if this was Husker Du's lead talking - as realizing they could step beyond the rough facade of Hardcore masculinity and explore other authentic emotions. It also was characterized by a musical style, notably jangly guitars and eratic explosions (I'm not sure on the second). Overall, the result was a dip into an entirely different genre that differed in attitude and musical style than Hardcore. As for the kids who claim to be emo (of whom I know very few serious emo kids actually, and question whether or not this was actually a subculture to begin with), some are Scene Kids, and some are just kids big into Indie music in genre. I think the line can be drawn between kids who were into emo with Ian and the rest, and kids of recent emo bands.

Now here's where I distinguish between emo and scene kids:

Scene Kids: Scene Kids are not necessarily emo. They are a phenomenon born out of recent trends and fashion. Their music ranges from Emo, to Electronica, to modern day Hardcore (which is like Hardcore Punk turned Metal, in my opinion). There's really no specific genre of music for them, as they are more of a fashion oriented subculture. They can be mistaken for Goths due to some of their theatrics. For example, Scene Kid guys sometimes wear makeup and girl pants. Some Scene Kids even wear a lot of black and other stuff that is associated with Goth. However, it's hard to say whether this is a blatant rip off of Goth though. They may be influenced by any combination of Modernism (aka. fashion-drive), Punk, Emo, and/or Metal.

[Side note: This was added on with some further reading of a site I'd included. Included among the "Other" links are some sites that are particularly interesting. In the History of Goth, the writer argues that Goth is not related to New Romantics (at least as far as musical stylings go), but rather a subculture that was briefly known as the Futurists. Both were rather flamboyant, but I believe the Futurists were the darker, angstier versions of the New Romantics. Follow the links below for further shtuff.]

[Side Note 2: I recently looked up Emo Kids and found an article about them. I believe it is faulty in associating Scene Kid fashion with Emo Kids when it talks about the two fashions. In my opinion, where it goes wrong is talking about the girl-tailored pants on guys and swept over hair styles. Those are Scene. However, the thick rimmed eyeglasses is true - I do remember these being popular when kids used to wear these. As with the previous side note, this link has been listed with the rest. It is the last link listed under Wikipedia.]

Further Readings:

Allmusic
Emo: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4525
Punk: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:204
Goth rock: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:387

Wikipedia
Punk Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock
Batcave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave_(London_nightclub)
New Romantics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Romantics
Gothic Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock
Goth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth
Emo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_(music)
Scene Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_kids
Emo Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_kids

Books
"Please Kill Me," by Legs McNeil
"Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984" by Simon Reynolds
"What is Goth?" by Voltaire

Other
History of Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
Futurists: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/future.htm
New Romantic: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/newro.htm
*Positive Punk: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/posipunk.htm
A Fast Intro to Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/fastgoth.htm

*I find this an interesting little article that was written prior to the formation of subculture as defined.

 

[Isobel Bellamy]

Heya, as a mod I supooose I should say that you should pm a mod if you feel a thread is misplaced, even if it's your own, but Izzie is in a good mood today and so a little generous with rules, I think that for the moment, your thread in the general can remain open to generate a few more visits to this one (as our poor little ED gets a little deserted now and a again).

And, back to the topic, was this a respond to my own post in your other thread?  

[Clash of Vision]

Apologies. I thought it was related to the topic, yet could be separate so I just took what I wrote and put it in extended discussion since I really would like more than just a mere discussion about distinguishing between the two. (Something a bit more indepth, such as analysis.) But yeah, this was a reply to your earlier article.  

[GilAskan]

I would give my normal long-winded flood of information on this topic, but I'm sure I'd die of age before I was able to point out the nuanced differences between the various scenes.  

[DieiNoctis]

I havn't heard of scene kids before this, but I don't think they fit in with Punk/Goth/Emo. The central peices of those three sub-cultures is the music. No matter how many other similarities there may be between the members, the music is the binding tie.
From what I can gather from this article, I would classify scene kids in the same groups as straigt-edge kids or new romantics. It's more of a 'lifestyle' thing, the binding thread is noticable different from Punk/Goth/Emo.

Just like why I call goths who don't listen to gothic music "Romantigoths", they're more new romantics than old-school goths.  

[Clash of Vision]

Scene kids may not really be in and of itself a subculture. It may be one of those labels that have just popped up to describe a certain collection of kids who dress similar while having a variety of taste in music. The first time I began to see them around my neighborhood was when the metalcore/emocore/new hardcore was becoming popular. I'm not sure of whether they are in anyway connected to that, or whether it's just some fashion that has spreaded its tentacles through media. I'll tell you this though: it's outright eerie how much they resemble one another. I've witnessed several girls just the other day, each with their mullet type hair...that bordered on *cringe* crimping.

So in the end, I guess I would have to agree with you, DieiNoctis. However, let me pose this question: what of those who insist that Goths came from the New Romantics, and that they were/are not a music oriented movement necessarily? (A source of mine stresses the Futurists rather than New Romantics, but they were both similar in fashion differing only in music. It is interesting to note, however, that New Romantics did have a form of music. I think some consider Adam Ant as coming from the New Romantics.) For instance, the 'Goth With A Sledgehammer" article that I posted a little bit ago stresses that it's not mandatory that a Goth listen to, well, Goth Rock or any other Gothic subgenre of music for that matter.

Personally, I can't help but see the arrival of Gothic Rock and the Gothic subculture as one and the same, because that was when it gained its name. However, I suppose this gets brings up two questions: 1) where you draw the line when talking about the beginning and the end of anything (which is an issue in particular with Punk Rock to an extent), and 2) whether Goth is lifestyle-oriented or music-oriented.  

[Clash of Vision]

Okay, and now for something completely different! Well, not totally...I just wanted to throw in a Monty Python quote. I'm gonna actually sit down and distinguish between the subcultures themselves. (These are in no way absolutist claims, haha.) And I'll also be doing this in a brief format...because people seem to bore easily. Feel free to ask for expansion on any issues, or...just to ask!

Punk is external and angry, and its fashion tends toward the rough and rugged. The rock star kind of approach. To me it's about saying f**k you. Not necessarily in an immature manner. One might say that it is the blunt force that shouts in anger against the world.

Goth is internal and brooding, and its fashion tends towards the darker aspects. To me it is also romantic in respects of mystery and darkness (not in the sense of corsets and what have you). Where as Punk is the masculine and blunt force, Goth is the feminine and poetic force that shouts against the world.

Emo is an exploration of emotions. It is characterized by teen angst. While (It should be noted that Goth touches on emotions, emotions are not *the* primary focus of Goth.) Emo varies from murderous rage to outright happiness. Some emo kids wear a rather conservative style of vintage clothing. Emo itself is the quest for emotive authenticity, I suppose.

Scene (if one accepts that there is such a thing) is a fashionable movement. It is characterized by fashions borrowed from subcultures prior to it, from Emo to Glam to Punk. Whether it's gender bending, or its poofy mullets on girls with really tight pants. A lot of it, I've observed, is actually retro stylings, which makes me think that this Scene phenomenon may be a rebirth of 80's fashion. Scene is about looking good...I'm not sure if it has a voice really, which is why I question it as a subculture. As a new up and coming pop culture...now that's another thought to think about.