What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan

[TeaDidikai]

We've seen the infodumps.

We've listened to those that have been lineaged, but our information needs to be consolidated.

To those ends- let's put this together once and for all!
Until the next time we have to revise it!

Clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles
Belonging to their fertility cult
Belief in reincarnation
Influence from the Kabalists
A Witch

Now- the holidays. Gardner himself did not title them by the Major 8 seen in the neo-pagan movement. While I would concede that the dates themselves are valid, can we call the names valid?  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Now- the holidays. Gardner himself did not title them by the Major 8 seen in the neo-pagan movement. While I would concede that the dates themselves are valid, can we call the names valid?

Before we throw out the names for the holidays, let me point out this - while I would agree that no one outside of actual Wicca can "evolve" the religion, I have heard good arguments for Wiccans inside making minor changes, such as naming the holidays.

We have some Wiccans and ex-Wiccans here. I think if they agree that the names are/were what are/were used in the lineaged Trads they are/were in, that they should be accepted as valid.

Edit: If they aren't the same, we should use whatever names are in use now for Wiccan holidays, unless, of course, that is oathbound info.

((Are/were I PC enough? AAaack!!))  

[TeaDidikai]

Dulliath

Before we throw out the names for the holidays, let me point out this - while I would agree that no one outside of actual Wicca can "evolve" the religion, I have heard good arguments for Wiccans inside making minor changes, such as naming the holidays.

We have some Wiccans and ex-Wiccans here. I think if they agree that the names are/were what are/were used in the lineaged Trads they are/were in, that they should be accepted as valid.

The problem I have with that suggestion is this:

The words "barrowed" have little if anything almost nothing to do with the holidays the Wiccans celebrate.
Half the time they don't even have the same date.  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Dulliath

Before we throw out the names for the holidays, let me point out this - while I would agree that no one outside of actual Wicca can "evolve" the religion, I have heard good arguments for Wiccans inside making minor changes, such as naming the holidays.

We have some Wiccans and ex-Wiccans here. I think if they agree that the names are/were what are/were used in the lineaged Trads they are/were in, that they should be accepted as valid.

The problem I have with that suggestion is this:

The words "barrowed" have little if anything almost nothing to do with the holidays the Wiccans celebrate.
Half the time they don't even have the same date.

Which is why I suggest we ask lineaged Wiccans for the names and, perhaps the dates. I don't know whether or not the names they "borrowed" are important to them or not. I suppose that would be another good question to ask the Wiccans in this guild. Regardless of whether Gardner said so or not, information gathered by real Wiccans practicing now is probably more applicable for a current definition than what was used 50 years ago.  

[kaidakitty]

TeaDidikai

Clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles
Belonging to their fertility cult
Belief in reincarnation
Influence from the Kabalists
A Witch

Sorry I'm new to this forum so forgive my confusion but....All Wiccans are clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles? What does that mean? What Isles are we referring to? The Brittish? Ireland? Certainly there are plenty of Wiccans who consider themselves followers of other pantheons. You can be both Greco-Roman centered and still follow the tenets of Wicca (ie the Rede). Also, when you say "their fertility cult" do you mean the God and Goddess' as "their" or that Wiccans in general belong to their own fertility cult? And why the emphasis on fertility? Yes, Wiccans acknowledge the cycle of the year and the fertile times, and many celebrate those festivals with more exuberance or focus, but the entire focus of Wicca is not on fertility. And there are those Pagans who belong to a fertility cult, or have a stronger focus on fertility rites but are not Wiccan. Can this then be a defining feature of Wicca?  

[kaidakitty]

kaidakitty

TeaDidikai

Clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles
Belonging to their fertility cult
Belief in reincarnation
Influence from the Kabalists
A Witch

Sorry I'm new to this forum so forgive my confusion but....All Wiccans are clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles? What does that mean? What Isles are we referring to? The Brittish? Ireland? Certainly there are plenty of Wiccans who consider themselves followers of other pantheons. You can be both Greco-Roman centered and still follow the tenets of Wicca (ie the Rede).

I retract this statement. It's clear that you are following a more Gardnerian line of thinking, so you're never going to agree with my comment.

kaidakitty

Also, when you say "their fertility cult" do you mean the God and Goddess' as "their" or that Wiccans in general belong to their own fertility cult? And why the emphasis on fertility? Yes, Wiccans acknowledge the cycle of the year and the fertile times, and many celebrate those festivals with more exuberance or focus, but the entire focus of Wicca is not on fertility. And there are those Pagans who belong to a fertility cult, or have a stronger focus on fertility rites but are not Wiccan. Can this then be a defining feature of Wicca?

This I'm keeping. I'm still curious as to why you feel the fertility cult aspects of Wicca are a defining feature.  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

kaidakitty

I retract this statement. It's clear that you are following a more Gardnerian line of thinking, so you're never going to agree with my comment.

"Gardnerian" is not an insult, no matter what the characters in Oh My Gods say. Please do not treat it as such. If you want to establish a point counter to the religion the way Gardner founded it, or Alexander Sanders modified it (with the aid of Stewart Farrar), then establish the authority of your stance.

kaidakitty

This I'm keeping. I'm still curious as to why you feel the fertility cult aspects of Wicca are a defining feature.

I'd say that the repeated references to the phallus and the womb in many Wiccan rituals might be a bit of a giveaway that Wicca was founded as a fertility religion, and kept as such through Alexander Sanders. Please show me where there is a lineaged Wiccan coven, who follows Wiccan theology as it is laid out by Gardner, Sanders, and Farrar, that contests the assertion that Wicca is a fertility cult. The Alexandrian coven you mention elsethread that worships the "Greco-Roman pantheon", as I believe you put it, is ruled out a priori unless you can establish authority that they are capable of practicing the religion called Wicca while not actually worshipping the deities of the religion.

ADDENDUM: Please try to keep the double-posting to a minimum. There's an "Edit" button for a reason.  

[CuAnnan]

kaidakitty

Sorry I'm new to this forum so forgive my confusion but....All Wiccans are clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles? What does that mean? What Isles are we referring to? The Brittish?

The British Isles and Ireland, I believe he was referring to.

kaidakitty

Certainly there are plenty of Wiccans who consider themselves followers of other pantheons.

When you change God, normal practice is to change religion.
Gardner started the religion.
He stated that you need to believe in his Gods to be of his religion.
What argument do you have to counter this?

kaidakitty

You can be both Greco-Roman centered and still follow the tenets of Wicca (ie the Rede).

The Rede is soundbite theology lite, nothing near the core tenets of Wicca.

kaidakitty

Also, when you say "their fertility cult" do you mean the God and Goddess' as "their" or that Wiccans in general belong to their own fertility cult?

It is the Fertility Cult of the Lord and Lady of the Isles.

kaidakitty

And why the emphasis on fertility?

Because Wicca is a fertility cult.

kaidakitty

Yes, Wiccans acknowledge the cycle of the year and the fertile times, and many celebrate those festivals with more exuberance or focus, but the entire focus of Wicca is not on fertility.

Actually, it pretty much is.

kaidakitty

And there are those Pagans who belong to a fertility cult, or have a stronger focus on fertility rites but are not Wiccan.

That's nice.
If you belong to The Fertility Cult that Worships the Lord and Lady of the Isles then you are a Wiccan.
If not, you are not.

kaidakitty

Can this then be a defining feature of Wicca?

Yes.  

[jaden kendam]

kaidakitty

TeaDidikai

Clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles
Belonging to their fertility cult
Belief in reincarnation
Influence from the Kabalists
A Witch

Sorry I'm new to this forum so forgive my confusion but....All Wiccans are clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles? What does that mean? What Isles are we referring to? The Brittish? Ireland? Certainly there are plenty of Wiccans who consider themselves followers of other pantheons. You can be both Greco-Roman centered and still follow the tenets of Wicca (ie the Rede). Also, when you say "their fertility cult" do you mean the God and Goddess' as "their" or that Wiccans in general belong to their own fertility cult? And why the emphasis on fertility? Yes, Wiccans acknowledge the cycle of the year and the fertile times, and many celebrate those festivals with more exuberance or focus, but the entire focus of Wicca is not on fertility. And there are those Pagans who belong to a fertility cult, or have a stronger focus on fertility rites but are not Wiccan. Can this then be a defining feature of Wicca?

Who told you that Wiccans can worship any diety that they wanted to and that it is not a fertility cult?  

[TeaDidikai]

Dulliath

Which is why I suggest we ask lineaged Wiccans for the names and, perhaps the dates.

And I am point blank stating that Lineaged Wiccans have no more right to bastardize the Irish Language than anyone else does.

Quote:

Regardless of whether Gardner said so or not, information gathered by real Wiccans practicing now is probably more applicable for a current definition than what was used 50 years ago.

I believe we call that an Appeal to Popularity.  

[TeaDidikai]

kaidakitty

Sorry I'm new to this forum so forgive my confusion but....All Wiccans are clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles?

Yep.

Quote:

What does that mean?

It means that the religion itself is made up completely of Clergy.
There is no such thing as a Lay Wiccan.

Quote:

What Isles are we referring to? The Brittish? Ireland?

Yep.

Quote:

Certainly there are plenty of Wiccans who consider themselves followers of other pantheons.

Not really.
Reagun and I are still debating- however, acknowledgement is not the same as following.

Quote:

You can be both Greco-Roman centered and still follow the tenets of Wicca (ie the Rede).

The Rede is not the heart of the theology.

Following the Rede doesn't make you Wiccan.
And the Rede itself is hardly present in the tenents of Wicca.

Quote:

Also, when you say "their fertility cult" do you mean the God and Goddess' as "their" or that Wiccans in general belong to their own fertility cult?

The Wiccan Lord and Lady's Fertility Cult.

Being part of any generic fertility cult that has different gods wouldn't make you Wiccan.

Quote:

And why the emphasis on fertility? Yes, Wiccans acknowledge the cycle of the year and the fertile times, and many celebrate those festivals with more exuberance or focus, but the entire focus of Wicca is not on fertility.

Wicca is a fertility cult by definition.

It is at the core of the theology.

Quote:

And there are those Pagans who belong to a fertility cult, or have a stronger focus on fertility rites but are not Wiccan.

Correct. Just because something is part of a practice, that doesn't make the whole of the theology the same.

Quote:

Can this then be a defining feature of Wicca?

When compounded with other conditions? Yes.  

[PirateEire]

So Gardner did not give his 8 holidays names at all? Then, perhaps, in keeping with tradition, lineaged Wiccans should let them remain nameless.  

[TeaDidikai]

PirateEire

So Gardner did not give his 8 holidays names at all? Then, perhaps, in keeping with tradition, lineaged Wiccans should let them remain nameless.

I'm inclined to agree. Or if within their tradition, they wish to call them X, Y, Z N Eve or Solst./Equ.  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

Dulliath

Which is why I suggest we ask lineaged Wiccans for the names and, perhaps the dates.

And I am point blank stating that Lineaged Wiccans have no more right to bastardize the Irish Language than anyone else does.

Quote:

Regardless of whether Gardner said so or not, information gathered by real Wiccans practicing now is probably more applicable for a current definition than what was used 50 years ago.

I believe we call that an Appeal to Popularity.

If your original intent in this thread had been to prove that Wiccans have no right to the names, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, whether the holiday names are Celtic or Norse, this argument is a strawman. Since your original intent was to find things that were valid for discerning or showing "What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan", the holiday names need to be the ones that are used in the Wiccan Fertility Cult, regardless of whether they are basterdized from somewhere else.  

[TeaDidikai]

Dulliath

If your original intent in this thread had been to prove that Wiccans have no right to the names, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, whether the holiday names are Celtic or Norse, this argument is a strawman. Since your original intent was to find things that were valid for discerning or showing "What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan", the holiday names need to be the ones that are used in the Wiccan Fertility Cult, regardless of whether they are basterdized from somewhere else.

However- if we go around ascribing inaccurate terms (for example, the name of Aradia to the Wiccan Lady), no matter if they use the terms or not- they aren't Wiccan.