Guidelines Discussion

[maenad nuri]

As I said I would in another topic, I have been working on some guidelines/rules for the forum, to keep the peace somewhat.

I have written three. I think they encapsulate what we seek to do here at the PFRC. What I ask now is for an honest discussion of what can be improved, taken out, added, ect. They have been run by a few people already, but because this effects the whole of the guild, I want everyone to have a chance to talk and ask questions.

So, without any further delay.

1. Your Opinion is not sacred.
Having an opinion is a great and wonderful thing, but just having one isn’t enough. Opinions are best made with facts and/or reasoning with them. There is such a thing as a bad opinion. However, there are just as many good opinions, which may conflict with each other. This is wonderful. We do not subscribe to any single ideology, nor should we.

2. Respect
When we come to the guild, a certain level of respect must be maintained to foster a healthy atmosphere. This does not mean your opinions won’t be challenged, or called wrong, or anything like that. It simply means taking care in your language. It means refraining from the insulting comment when debating. It means respecting people even if they disregard this rule. Be the better person.


3. Academic Honesty and Responding to a Challenge.
To steal from Chaucer and my alma mater “And gladly would he learn, and gladly would he teach”. When you present factual information, you should cite your sources or explain your reasoning. If you disagree with factual information that someone has presented, counter it with your own factual and cited information. If it is reasoning that someone has presented you with, counter it with reasoning of your own.

Please, tell me what you think.  

[Kuroiban]

No issue with the first two.

Nuri

3. Academic Honesty and Responding to a Challenge.
To steal from Chaucer and my alma mater “And gladly would he learn, and gladly would he teach”. When you present factual information, you should cite your sources or explain your reasoning. If you disagree with factual information that someone has presented, counter it with your own factual and cited information. If it is reasoning that someone has presented you with, counter it with reasoning of your own.

This makes it sounds sound as though a alleged fact can only be debated using other alleged facts, and that an reasoned idea can only be countered by a reasoned idea. I may be reading too much into things, but I don't like the idea that a reasoned idea cannot be countered with an alleged fact. That makes a whole lot of silliness come out of the word work.

More over, is a reasoned idea anything to base a logical debate on? The moment you start talking in provables, you need to deal in provables exclusively or the whole train goes off the rails.

Case in point:

Person A: "This fact, which is referenced in books A, B, and C...says that X is true, and Y is false."
Person B: "Well...I've thought about it a lot and I think Y and X are both true at the same time."
Person A: "Um...what do you base that on?"
Person B: "Well, everyone beliefs are valid, and since that's what I believe, it must be true."
Person A is dealt 158 points of insanity damage.

That's a bit of a crude example, but it's a rough form of something I think we've all seen at one point or another.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

2. Respect
When we come to the guild, a certain level of respect must be maintained to foster a healthy atmosphere. This does not mean your opinions won’t be challenged, or called wrong, or anything like that. It simply means taking care in your language. It means refraining from the insulting comment when debating. It means respecting people even if they disregard this rule. Be the better person.

This is the sticking point for me.

What is or is not insulting? A lot of us type the way we speak. Gaia by design has a relaxed attitude towards censorship.

To a certain extent, I feel that these rules will basically replace Pathways to a certain extent. After all- Pathways was designed so that people could express their position without worrying about "confrontational" language.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

To a certain extent, I feel that these rules will basically replace Pathways to a certain extent. After all- Pathways was designed so that people could express their position without worrying about "confrontational" language.

There is a line between confrontational and insulting. It may be fuzzy at times, but it's still there.

i.e. "You have no right to those gods because of x, y and z, and here are my sources."

As opposed to,

"You're an ignorant child for worshipping those gods because of x, y and z."

I agree that often confrontational language can be misconstrued as insulting, but I would consider name-calling to be crossing the line.

Not to mention that people get a bit emotional when called a rapist. Repeatedly. Without really knowing why. wink  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

Nuri

2. Respect
When we come to the guild, a certain level of respect must be maintained to foster a healthy atmosphere. This does not mean your opinions won’t be challenged, or called wrong, or anything like that. It simply means taking care in your language. It means refraining from the insulting comment when debating. It means respecting people even if they disregard this rule. Be the better person.

This is the sticking point for me.

What is or is not insulting? A lot of us type the way we speak. Gaia by design has a relaxed attitude towards censorship.

To a certain extent, I feel that these rules will basically replace Pathways to a certain extent. After all- Pathways was designed so that people could express their position without worrying about "confrontational" language.

I don't think it will. That is for specific religions, more or less, and what we do in the main area is everything at once.

Magpie's got what I consider insulting. I've done it on occasion, and so has everyone else here that is an active member.

I'll look into providing some examples.

Also: Kuro: Yeah, that is misleading. Labeled to be fixed in the next version.  

[TeaDidikai]

The other thing to note is the common belief that Respect is earned.  

[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

The other thing to note is the common belief that Respect is earned.

But then, driving off newcomers who genuinely want to learn because they're not respected kind of defeats the purpose of the guild.

Like where are the other roughly 800 members of this guild who never post?  

[Elizabeth Tarion]

Respect according to Merriam Webster.
Number 1 A on the Transitive Verb entry gives "to consider worthy of high regard" - this supports "respect is earned", as does 3 A in the Noun entry.
How about "Civility", instead then? It covers courtesy and politeness and makes more sense given the "2. Respect" rule description; at least I think it does.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

The other thing to note is the common belief that Respect is earned.

But then, driving off newcomers who genuinely want to learn because they're not respected kind of defeats the purpose of the guild.

If they leave every time someone doesn't treat them the way they want to be treated- then it is on them.

Think of what it would be like to quit a job every time you argued with a co-worker.

Quote:

Like where are the other roughly 800 members of this guild who never post?

Some of them have been banned. Some of them neglect their guilds, some of them have so many guilds they only go to ones that stroke their ego- but they join them all because they enjoy having a huge guild list. Some of them have left gaia all together...

If someone doesn't post in this guild, it is because they choose not to.  

[Dulliath]

TeaDidikai

missmagpie

TeaDidikai

The other thing to note is the common belief that Respect is earned.

But then, driving off newcomers who genuinely want to learn because they're not respected kind of defeats the purpose of the guild.

If they leave every time someone doesn't treat them the way they want to be treated- then it is on them.

Think of what it would be like to quit a job every time you argued with a co-worker.

Quote:

Like where are the other roughly 800 members of this guild who never post?

Some of them have been banned. Some of them neglect their guilds, some of them have so many guilds they only go to ones that stroke their ego- but they join them all because they enjoy having a huge guild list. Some of them have left gaia all together...

If someone doesn't post in this guild, it is because they choose not to.

I consider myself one of the other 800. In the long run, I agree with Tea, although my reasons for not posting regularly are different than most of those she gave. I don't post often, but this is the only really active guild I am a member of. I read what is posted here at least twice a day. The reason I don't often post is that most of the time I feel like I learn more just keeping my mouth shut and listening. If I have a question that I haven't seen answered somewhere else, I post and ask.

But, in the end, if someone does not post here, it is because they choose not to, for whatever reason they may have.  

[Starlock]

Nuri

1. Your Opinion is not sacred.

But don't we Pagans generally find the sacred in all things? wink
Joking aside... I've ran some topics in some other guilds on the subject of the value of opinion (reason-based or not) when contrasted with facts (well-researched or not). So what's the position here on this? Blatant misinformation is to be corrected in the context of this guild, yet as facts feed into opinions and vice versa... how is discernment done? I see this in more places than just here, of course, but it's especially problematic when dealing with religious issues or other non-science topics. There's a problem in seperating known facts from interpretation OF those facts, or just plain a problem with only having some of the information and not all of it (as scholastic work on Neopagan movements is in its infancy). Just a thought, at any rate.

Nuri

2. Respect

This aught to be common sense, eh? Some have argued the word 'civility' may be better; I'm inclined to agree as there are those who for whatever reason cannot stand by universal respect. That tendancy in itself also must be respected. As the Guild owner, it's your call to establish what is and is not tolerable. That can be a tough call and often a loose-loose when it comes to making all parties satisfied; either way, someone won't be happy. To be blunt, I've been more than a little unhappy with this Guild, but it isn't anything that you or the MODs have done but moreso the fact that I'm effectively banned from responding to the majority of currently running threads. If you do intend to espouse this tenant as a guideline of the guild, this sittuation should be remedied one way or another. If that means me stepping out, so be it (shrugs).

Nuri

3. Academic Honesty and Responding to a Challenge.

I've got mixed reactions to this. Generally I won't comment on a topic unless I've got some sort of background on it, but source citation? I've read so much crap I'll be damned if I'll ever remember every time where I read what, nevermind sliding in a citation! xd I don't have the time nor the access anymore to meet this criteria and frankly I doubt if most users here do. There is value in this sort of thing, but what are we creating here? Seems to me this criteria would better be suited for a collection of Masters or Ph.D. students persuing Neopagan studies as a thesis... not a public online forum. Where people are willing and able to do this, great! Let's not alienate those who don't have the time or access to do so, though! Perhaps a subforum for more academic quarrels would be in order?  

[maenad nuri]

MoreSpareParts: Good point. That is a better word, and closer to what I meant.

Tea: I have banned...2 people in the time we've had the guild, maybe less. When I asked for opinions why lurkers don't post, I got quite a few pm's stating that the atmosphere was too much. These were well-articulated people, that I'd like to see around.

Starlock: I may strike the third guideline alltogether--it was an afterthought--maybe something about evaluating your sources instead? "Misti's Personal Pagan Website" probably isn't as reliable as say, "Gardner, in His Own Words" (which sadly, is reachable only through the wayback machine)

You raise an interesting point with your first one...but that may be another topic for another time.  

[CuAnnan]

Nuri knows I agree with her rules, we discussed them over IM.

I have a fuse, I know this. I am harsh and abrasive in my nature but I'll agree to try very very hard to be more civil in future.  

[TeaDidikai]

Nuri

Tea: I have banned...2 people in the time we've had the guild, maybe less. When I asked for opinions why lurkers don't post, I got quite a few pm's stating that the atmosphere was too much. These were well-articulated people, that I'd like to see around.

My question is why is it "too much".

On the one hand, you have people who cannot stand X and are part of Y and on the other you have people who cannot stand Y and are part of X.

No matter which way things go- someone has their bounderies crossed.

Why reward those who are not willing to risk that to begin with?  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

Nuri

Tea: I have banned...2 people in the time we've had the guild, maybe less. When I asked for opinions why lurkers don't post, I got quite a few pm's stating that the atmosphere was too much. These were well-articulated people, that I'd like to see around.

My question is why is it "too much".

On the one hand, you have people who cannot stand X and are part of Y and on the other you have people who cannot stand Y and are part of X.

No matter which way things go- someone has their bounderies crossed.

Why reward those who are not willing to risk that to begin with?

Because I want them to participate. And if our atmosphere is hostile, and there are days when I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE, then something has to change.

I'd like us to have a bit more civility (good word) a little more discussion (rather than full-fledged debate, although that certainly has its place), and less running people off.

I hate trying to get them back. It takes so much effort.