Gifts

[Pelta]

Gift-giving has especial resonance in some pagan traditions. The act of giving signifies more than just the object itself. I have often seen it mentioned in some of the fluffier books I've flicked through as an action of great power, although nothing has ever been specific.

I make origami cranes. I give them to people as an expression of goodwill. Within each is a piece of myself which I willingly give away. Of what significance is this? At which point am I giving away too much?

A man I knew was once most generous in giving. When we broke up he demanded many of his gifts back. I found that wrong, especially since once something is given it cannot be taken back. What do you think?

What are your thoughts on the power of a Gift?  

[CuAnnan]

Gift giving in Celtic Mysticism is an act of binding. When I have something you made, I have power over you. You have given me that power and it is mine to do with as I will.

It is for that reason that, upon breaking up with someone, I burn everything they have ever given me. I return to them the power they have given me and, depending on whether or not I am aggrieved with them, have been known to give a little extra back

When the gift has been charged in the way you talk of, then it is a dangerous thing to do. What if you misjudge someone. What if you, in fact, turn out to be unworthy of them? What if something in your nature is an act of betrayal. Then you've ******** yourself.

Unless of course they're like me, and just destroy them and have it be done with.  

[Pelta]

reagun ban

What if you misjudge someone.

Disparities in judgment occur every day in modern life. Misjudgment of character is dangerous but not uncommon. You can either hide yourself away behind a wall of ego or start all over again. Even after being hurt I prefer to be close to people than distance myself from everyone. It requires more strength to trust again than to isolate yourself forever.

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What if you, in fact, turn out to be unworthy of them?

Au contraire. Anyone who believes themselves superior doesn't deserve what I gave them. I give humbly. When one takes selfishly they are undeserving of my friendship.

I have rather solid understanding of my own self worth. I know when I deserve better.

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What if something in your nature is an act of betrayal.

I don't understand. Could you elaborate?

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Unless of course they're like me, and just destroy them and have it be done with.

Do you not think that shows a lack of respect for what you had with the person? Destroying your power over them is one thing. Destroying the memories of the good time you had together is blinding yourself to the truth of what you once had.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

It requires more strength to trust again than to isolate yourself forever.

Such a hasty statement.

It would depend on the individual. Folks who do not have a trusting nature may or may not hold the above to be true. Folks who do have a trusting nature would find it harder to reign themselves in.

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What if you, in fact, turn out to be unworthy of them?

Au contraire. Anyone who believes themselves superior doesn't deserve what I gave them. I give humbly. When one takes selfishly they are undeserving of my friendship. Bullshit. A number of character traits and choices can null worth. And just because you have a sense of self worth, that doesn't mean you are worthy of them. Case in point: The Little Mermaid. The HCA version, and the way art mimics life.

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I have rather solid understanding of my own self worth. I know when I deserve better.

I'd contest this, citing that unless no one is able to decieve you- you wouldn't know, but that would be argument from potential- so I'll let people who know you in real life make assertions one way or another.

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What if something in your nature is an act of betrayal.

I don't understand. Could you elaborate?

This example stems from a misunderstanding- but had it not been a misunderstanding, it would have been a perfect case in point.

One of the deities my tradition deals with is a deity of a specific disease. I pay her no worship, but she is part of a bribing tradition that I uphold out of obligation.

If I did worship her- a part of my nature would have been a betrayal to a dear friend who considers her to be in violation of all that is Good/Holy/Right. As someone who "worshiped" her- my very nature would have been a violation of the friendship.

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Do you not think that shows a lack of respect for what you had with the person?

Heavens no. In fact- at times it is the most sane and respectful thing one can do.

I do this at times to put away temptation if nothing else.

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Destroying your power over them is one thing. Destroying the memories of the good time you had together is blinding yourself to the truth of what you once had.

Bullshit. Prove to me that destroying an object and destroying a memory is the same thing.  

[CuAnnan]

missmagpie

It requires more strength to trust again than to isolate yourself forever.

I disagree. It takes more strength to go it alone. People need friends.

missmagpie

Au contraire. Anyone who believes themselves superior doesn't deserve what I gave them. I give humbly. When one takes selfishly they are undeserving of my friendship.

You misunderstand the question. I did not ask you what happens if you are not worthy of someone, not inferior to them, unworthy. There's a difference.

missmagpie

I have rather solid understanding of my own self worth. I know when I deserve better.

This came down to self worth and you when exactly?
Someone, even you since you make this about you, can do something which makes them unworthy of someone. Consorting with child rapists, for example, is one which will do it for me any time. Someone consorts with child rapists, bang, they're unworthy of me... hell they're unworthy of living but I don't count myself as much of a judge.

missmagpie

I don't understand. Could you elaborate?

Sure.
It's in my nature to be polyamourous. I've spent the past three years of my life in a monogomous relationship. If Bart weren't more understanding then my having feelings for another person would be betraying him.

missmagpie

Destroying your power over them is one thing. Destroying the memories of the good time you had together is blinding yourself to the truth of what you once had.

I'd destroy the physical manifestation of those memories rather than risk disgracing them by using them as a contact point to fry someone I once cared about.  

[Aesi]

TeaDidikai

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What if something in your nature is an act of betrayal.

I don't understand. Could you elaborate?

This example stems from a misunderstanding- but had it not been a misunderstanding, it would have been a perfect case in point.

One of the deities my tradition deals with is a deity of a specific disease. I pay her no worship, but she is part of a bribing tradition that I uphold out of obligation.

If I did worship her- a part of my nature would have been a betrayal to a dear friend who considers her to be in violation of all that is Good/Holy/Right. As someone who "worshiped" her- my very nature would have been a violation of the friendship.

If you worshipped this deity and your friend chose to part ways, would she be upholding what is right? In her mind, she certainly would be. What if you worshipped this deity and your friend decided that in the interest of what is right, it is better to remain friends with you? If she were to do this, she's accepted that you and she may conflict, but she feels the friendship is worth risking this possibility. Is your nature still in violation of your friendship? In this case, you remain friends because at least one of you chooses to, right? Maybe one god or the other or both are unhappy about it, but that's something to deal with. Would it automatically mean your friendship had to dissolve?

Pardon me, but gods are gods and humans are humans. Last I checked, we're free to accept the risks, rewards, and responsibilities of everything we do, regardless of who we worship and what they think about our choices. Frankly, I see little value in a person who'd tell me we can't be friends because our paths might conflict.

Regarding gifts, I place high value on any gift I receive. I have a hard time accepting help because I've already taken so much from the people who care about me. If they assist me, my desire to repay them grows. Gifts, however, are extremely precious. I can't quite explain the line I draw between gifts and assistance, except that I determine what is which by the manner in which it's given. A gift is a mark of trust. It's free of debt, a sign that the giver wants me to be happy, and a show of support. A sincere gift is treated with reverance and delight.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aesi

If you worshipped this deity and your friend chose to part ways, would she be upholding what is right?

1) He. There is a p***s that is attached to the individual in question.

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In her mind, she certainly would be.

2) I am sure. But then- by that same reasoning- they have bigger fish to fry that a deity that exists by natural law in my opinion. However- this is cutting to close so I am going to find ways to address this outside of the example.

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Is your nature still in violation of your friendship? In this case, you remain friends because at least one of you chooses to, right?

No. It takes two willing individuals to form a friendship.

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Maybe one god or the other or both are unhappy about it, but that's something to deal with.

You seem to be under the impression that individuals can just opt out of obligations to deities.

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Would it automatically mean your friendship had to dissolve?

******** yes. Not all of us tell our gods to ******** off at the drop of a hat.

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Pardon me, but gods are gods and humans are humans. Last I checked, we're free to accept the risks, rewards, and responsibilities of everything we do, regardless of who we worship and what they think about our choices.

You didn't check too well.
Some individuals have responsibilities that they simply cannot turn their backs on.
I'm happy for you that your faith and your relationship with your gods is something you can be so casual about as to ignore your oaths and everything- but not everyone has that luxury.

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Frankly, I see little value in a person who'd tell me we can't be friends because our paths might conflict.

That's nice. Cookie?

Perhaps I am being too harsh. You seem to misunderstand.

"Hi! I'm a rapist. I want to be your friend."
"Hi! I'm the sister of your last victim. She doesn't want me being friends with you."

A little easier to understand?

Said sister isn't worthless. Said sister has a number of valid reasons to tell the individual in question to stay the ******** away from the person who raped them.  

[Pelta]

reagun ban

missmagpie

It requires more strength to trust again than to isolate yourself forever.

I disagree. It takes more strength to go it alone. People need friends.

You misunderstood. It is important to have friends. After being hurt it is sometimes easier to hide away and lick your wounds than to brave being betrayed again.

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You misunderstand the question. I did not ask you what happens if you are not worthy of someone, not inferior to them, unworthy. There's a difference.

You are right. There is a difference. Unworthy implies greater worth on the side of one rather than the other. It does not imply that one in inferior.

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missmagpie

I have rather solid understanding of my own self worth. I know when I deserve better.

This came down to self worth and you when exactly?

Never. I was making a statement about friendships as I see them. Having only ever experienced my own I cannot speak from a general situation, and thus used a first person pronoun.

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Someone, even you since you make this about you, can do something which makes them unworthy of someone. Consorting with child rapists, for example, is one which will do it for me any time. Someone consorts with child rapists, bang, they're unworthy of me... hell they're unworthy of living but I don't count myself as much of a judge.

Ah. Well if you want to open that can of worms there are multiple things that prove one to be unworthy. Cowardice is one. Few have the audacity to throw away something once respected without facing them.

Unfortunately I have the terribly human trait of forgiveness in which when someone wants to face me to apologise I will hear them out. I prefer to live and let go than to hold my grudges for lifetimes.

Your willingness to judge without understanding the situation doesn't speak very highly of you.

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I'd destroy the physical manifestation of those memories rather than risk disgracing them by using them as a contact point to fry someone I once cared about.

I respect your judgment in destroying what someone created for you. An effective method of burning your bridges, so to speak.  

[CuAnnan]

missmagpie

You misunderstood. It is important to have friends. After being hurt it is sometimes easier to hide away and lick your wounds than to brave being betrayed again.

Note the bolded words. I find it easier to find solace in friends and have them lick my wounds for me, then I always was a tactile person.

missmagpie

You are right.

Scorpion and frog.

missmagpie

There is a difference. Unworthy implies greater worth on the side of one rather than the other. It does not imply that one in inferior.

And since worth is measured by people, it is subjective. I place more worth on silver than I do on gold.

missmagpie

Ah. Well if you want to open that can of worms there are multiple things that prove one to be unworthy. Cowardice is one. Few have the audacity to throw away something once respected without facing them.

Well it all depends on circumstance.
Having been told, now let me see if I can remember this correctly, "my personal life is your concern how?", I felt no need to face them. They told me that I was not a part of their personal life, let them deal with the consequences. Particularly since the above telling was in white text on a white background.
Don't lecture me on cowardice, when I have something to say to someone, I ensure they can see the message.

This all ignores the fact that I tell people these things.

For those of you reading this thread who consider yourself my friend with whom I have not discussed rape or sexual abuse:
Consorting with child rapists or child sex abusers is an instant three strike offence. Engaging in either offence will put you into my "must not live" pile.
There will be no discussion on these issues, they are immovable.

missmagpie

Unfortunately I have the terribly human trait of forgiveness in which when someone wants to face me to apologise I will hear them out. I prefer to live and let go than to hold my grudges for lifetimes.

Funny that, there are some things I find cannot be apologised for.
In the case of consorting with child rapists, there is no apologising. You can't undo that betrayal. There is no Ctrl-z, there is just "you don't exist to me, now go away and un-exist elsewhere or I'll make you".
I don't go out of my way to confront people in this situation and I'm quite capable of being... if not friendly then civil towards them.

missmagpie

Your willingness to judge without understanding the situation doesn't speak very highly of you.

Situation?
There's a situation here?
We're not talking hypotheticals?

missmagpie

I respect your judgment in destroying what someone created for you. An effective method of burning your bridges, so to speak.

That certainly has a part to play in it. Bridges work both ways, except those funky one way bridge yokies but they're not part of my analogy here.

I live in shared accomadation. I'm not going to leave a tangible connection to someone with whom I've had an unfixable falling out in my castle.. not going to happen. I've had one freind desecrate my altar before, not going to happen again.  

[Pelta]

[quote="reagun ban]Having been told, now let me see if I can remember this correctly, "my personal life is your concern how?", I felt no need to face them. They told me that I was not a part of their personal life, let them deal with the consequences. Particularly since the above telling was in white text on a white background.
Don't lecture me on cowardice, when I have something to say to someone, I ensure they can see the message. "Since when is my private life any of your personal concern." Since you made it clear that my relationship issues held none of your interest in other situations, it became interesting that consorting with an ex held such damnable offenses in others.

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This all ignores the fact that I tell people these things.

Name ONE single time you told your previous friend that consorting with the man in question was a sin.

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Engaging in either offence will put you into my "must not live" pile.

Ah. So Captain Carrot and the local Alexandrian High Priestess fall in that category too?

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Funny that, there are some things I find cannot be apologised for.
In the case of consorting with child rapists, there is no apologising. You can't undo that betrayal.

That was not what I was referring to. Indeed there is no "undo" button, nor would I use one if it existed. What I was referring to was why the 'rapist' had to be spoken to in the first place. There are emotional scars that can only be healed by certain people. There was also a large bag of books in my closet that didn't belong to me.

Again with the judging without understanding.

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We're not talking hypotheticals?

Of course we are. Hypothetically an ex-friend has done something making them unworthy of your friendship. Also hypothetically, we are examining the merits and flaws of said judgment. And tieing it back to the thread, the merits and flaws of giving gifts to someone who does not deserve them. That is all.

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I've had one freind desecrate my altar before, not going to happen again.

This is what I meant in an earlier statement about fear of betrayal. It is harder to open up to someone who might hurt you than to hide away and break off connections when they prove themselves flawed. There are many things that can never be forgiven, as indeed in the quoted example. Trusting again is either brave or foolhardy. Playing it safe may be either selfish or careful. It's up to one's perspective to decide.  

[CuAnnan]

missmagpie

"Since when is my private life any of your personal concern." Since you made it clear that my relationship issues held none of your interest in other situations, it became interesting that consorting with an ex held such damnable offenses in others.

Yeah, that was the quote. And it wasn't the "ex" part that was damning, it was the "repeat child rapist" because he "like(s) them young and innocent" that was damning.

missmagpie

Name ONE single time you told your previous friend that consorting with the man in question was a sin.

Shortly enough before he got his punk a** extradited back to the country for engaging in intercourse with minors, I believe.
None-the-less, he had come up in conversation before and I extolled his crimes and the punishments he was due and the punishments for those who consort with him.

missmagpie

Ah. So Captain Carrot and the local Alexandrian High Priestess fall in that category too?

Wanna cite instances of Cap'n carrot engaging in child abuse or child rape?
As for the Alexandrian High Priestess, there are three who go to the moots. The Boanna supplicant, the Older one and the one who's "fairy kin".

missmagpie

That was not what I was referring to. Indeed there is no "undo" button, nor would I use one if it existed. What I was referring to was why the 'rapist' had to be spoken to in the first place. There are emotional scars that can only be healed by certain people. There was also a large bag of books in my closet that didn't belong to me.

That's nice dear.
Did I state there were no extenuating circumstances?
No.
Do I care?
Urm.. no not really.
Do they mitigate?
No.

missmagpie

Again with the judging without understanding.

Don't mistake apathy for ignorance.

missmagpie

Of course we are. Hypothetically an ex-friend has done something making them unworthy of your friendship. Also hypothetically, we are examining the merits and flaws of said judgment. And tieing it back to the thread, the merits and flaws of giving gifts to someone who does not deserve them. That is all.

Oh. Right so.
If they didn't deserve the gift(s) and you gave them to the hypothetical friend, then you're a fool.

missmagpie

This is what I meant in an earlier statement about fear of betrayal. It is harder to open up to someone who might hurt you than to hide away and break off connections when they prove themselves flawed.

Oh, well it's not when they're flawed that I sever them.
I have two of the strongest connections I've ever experienced. Both of them are flawed. I'll be hanging on to them though.
It's when a connection is inherently damaging.
I would gladly sever a connection to a spiritual parasite, or to someone who associates with child rapists, for example.

missmagpie

There are many things that can never be forgiven, as indeed in the quoted example. Trusting again is either brave or foolhardy. Playing it safe may be either selfish or careful. It's up to one's perspective to decide.

Indeed.
However, we come to the matter of what to do with the gifts when the friendship is over.
We can trust the person, who has shown themselves to be unworthy, and give them back. That would be foolish.
We could leave them where they are. That would be foolish.
Or we can destroy them. That hurts a little and strips you of nice shiny things, but it's not foolish.  

[Deoridhe]

missmagpie

reagun ban

This all ignores the fact that I tell people these things.

Name ONE single time you told your previous friend that consorting with the man in question was a sin.

Why are you using the word sin?

Also, since when was judging always a bad thing? We're not Christians, here, by and large; we don't have a deity representative who told us not to judge.  

[CuAnnan]

Deoridhe

Why are you using the word sin?

Because in this case, it's a good word to use.
It implies an inherant evil, which is how I view the hypothetical situation.

vikeAlso, since when was judging always a bad thing? We're not Christians, here, by and large; we don't have a deity representative who told us not to judge.
And some of us are expected to do so.
Annan isn't known for tolerating people who tolerate fools. That would seem to imply to me that She expects us to judge people, neh?  

[Darin Rosewood]

reagun ban

I place more worth on silver than I do on gold.

You too?  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

And some of us are expected to do so.
Annan isn't known for tolerating people who tolerate fools. That would seem to imply to me that She expects us to judge people, neh?

Indeed.

In fact- judgement is an important part of family structure. Parents are expected to judge the safety of a situation before they place their child in the position in question.

Kindred are expected to judge others actions at the Althing.