Wicca's Origins and the False Testimony of the Old Religion

[Miss Lune Soleil]

I'm currently writing a thesis on Wicca's origins and why it is falsly referred to as the Old Religion. It isn't finished yet, but a lot is here. Let me know in the thread what you think so far! smile

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17297555  

[TeaDidikai]

Phoenixfire Lune Soleil

I'm currently writing a thesis on Wicca's origins and why it is falsly referred to as the Old Religion. It isn't finished yet, but a lot is here. Let me know in the thread what you think so far! smile

Pretty]http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17297555

Pretty good. Might want to include some of the quotes from Gardner's works as well.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

TeaDidikai

Pretty good. Might want to include some of the quotes from Gardner's works as well.

3nodding Noted. Thanks, I'll have a look later and quote him directly.  

[Triste-chan]

It's good. However, I think it's very important that you note that even Gardner admitted that he supplemented old material with his own stuff. It shows that Gardner wasn't just an insane fraud, for one, which is important.

Tell you what - when this is finished, PM it to me. Assuming that I haven't dissapeared from Gaia, I'll work it into the new version of the Wicca FAQ. With credit, of course.  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

Triste-chan

It's good. However, I think it's very important that you note that even Gardner admitted that he supplemented old material with his own stuff. It shows that Gardner wasn't just an insane fraud, for one, which is important.

Tell you what - when this is finished, PM it to me. Assuming that I haven't dissapeared from Gaia, I'll work it into the new version of the Wicca FAQ. With credit, of course.

3nodding Sure thing.
I tried not to protray Gardner as a fraud, he was going by Murray's work after all, and at the time people beleived it was true history. Also noted though  

[Doctrix]

You might consider this beyond the scope of your article, but I suggest that you mention Charles G. Leland's 1890 work Aradia, Gospel of the WItches. Though, like Murray's original works, not specifically referencing the term Wicca, think it has been taken as anecdotal evidence by many, and I was surprised to see no mention of Leland in an article about la vecchia religione (the old religion.) I may be mistaken, but I believe it was his publication that introduced the term? Don't give Murray all the credit!  

[Miss Lune Soleil]

[Kudzu]

You might consider this beyond the scope of your article, but I suggest that you mention Charles G. Leland's 1890 work Aradia, Gospel of the WItches. Though, like Murray's original works, not specifically referencing the term Wicca, think it has been taken as anecdotal evidence by many, and I was surprised to see no mention of Leland in an article about la vecchia religione (the old religion.) I may be mistaken, but I believe it was his publication that introduced the term? Don't give Murray all the credit!

Heh, you know I forgot about that. Then again I'm not totally versed on how much influence Leland had on Wicca as a whole, or the Old Religion idea specifically as I've mainly only found info on Murray in that respect. >.> I'll have to do some more digging, I think, thank you.  

[Gideon Starorzewski]

If you want to deal some serious damage, you might want to cite the theory that Aleister Crowley either helped create or actually created Wicca for Gardner.  

[Starlock]

Gideon Starorzewski

If you want to deal some serious damage, you might want to cite the theory that Aleister Crowley either helped create or actually created Wicca for Gardner.

It's just a theory? Some of the stuff in Wicca is taken verbatum from Crowley's work. [Source = http://www.redflame93.com/Gardner.html] I haven't verified this site's research personally, but it was pointed out to me by someone I trust.

But this too might be beyond the scope of a short essay. whee  

[TeaDidikai]

Not a theory at all to my knowledge.  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

Wait wait, I've heard that Wicca borrowed stuff from Crowley, but Crowley actually helped Gardner create Wicca?

Never thought I'd ask this, but can I see sources? Unless of course I'm just reading what you're saying wrong.  

[Fiddlers Green]

One theorey, it was mostly coined by Leo Ruickbie place Crowley, rather than Gardner as the brains behind the operation.
Another, by someone named Hutton I believe, says that it is ripped of from a Rosecrucian break off group.
Of course, there are also some sources labeling Gardner as a member of the Golden Dawn... and it is hard to seperate (in popular imagination) Crowley's personal hijinks from that organizations eclectic mysticism...  

[TeaDidikai]

PhantomPhoenix0

Wait wait, I've heard that Wicca borrowed stuff from Crowley, but Crowley actually helped Gardner create Wicca?

Never thought I'd ask this, but can I see sources? Unless of course I'm just reading what you're saying wrong.

It is my understanding that Crowley's handwritting was on Gardner's copy of Ye Bok Ye Arts Magical.  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

TeaDidikai

PhantomPhoenix0

Wait wait, I've heard that Wicca borrowed stuff from Crowley, but Crowley actually helped Gardner create Wicca?

Never thought I'd ask this, but can I see sources? Unless of course I'm just reading what you're saying wrong.

It is my understanding that Crowley's handwritting was on Gardner's copy of Ye Bok Ye Arts Magical.

Still, source please?

If it is true, I'm not going to deny the possibility that Crowley had a hand in helping, but just from what you've said, its too vauge to be fact if indeed Crowley wrote something in the book. Could be an autograph, or a proofreading note.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Tis a piss poor secret society where one can find as much information as is available (unless it is all meant to be misleading), much less have anyone with any sort of credibility denouce their actions.
However, the theorey is expounded upon in the following book: Ruickbie, Leo. Witchcraft out of the Shadows: A Complete History. Robert Hale Limited. ISBN 0709075677