'Malevolent' Gods

[Triste-chan]

One of the ways that some pagan mythology (not all, oviously, but some) differs from Abrahamic religions is that deities are not necessarily perfectly benevolent beings.

While YHVH is considered by his followers to be a perfectly good and omnipotent deity (for the sake of this discussion we'll ignore Gnostic concepts of the Demiurge, which I am aware of, for the record), many pagan deities are not so perfect by both conventional moral definitions and even by their own followers' standards.

We will take, for instance, the Greek Gods, since these are the ones who I am most familiar with. Athena, when defeated and insulted (or just defeated, or so I've heard from some sources, but we'll assume that she was insulted as well) by Arachne, turned her opponent into a spider. Artemis, when seen naked by a man, would hunt him down and kill him. There was, of course, all kinds of rape going on, and Zeus was completely unfaithful to his wife.

These things are Not Very Nice (TM) by the standards of most Hellenists I've met, and the average person on the street will certainly agree that rape is bad. I don't mean to pick on Greek Gods, of course - there are various other deities that come to mind as well. Loki, for instance (though I'm not sure I'd necessarily conside him evil, he's no Mother Theresa), and Set, or such is my understanding, though again, I realize that Set was not always portrayed as completely evil even in ancient Egyptian writings. I don't know much about Hindu mythology, but there are those who believe that part of worshipping Kali is strangling people - and that necklace of skulls must have come from somewhere. And depending on who you ask, any god or goddess of war would be 'bad,' although at this point we are moving into white-lighter territory.

Note that I am not making any moral judgement on any gods or any worshippers of any gods. Here are the questions I have:

1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship so-called "Malevolent" gods, who are 'bad' by conventional standards? By your own moral standards?

3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

EDIT: The word 'worship' was, in hindsight, a poor choice of words -'have a non-adversarial relationship with' is better, all things considered, as not all theists worship their deities.  

[TeaDidikai]

Triste-chan

While YHVH is considered by his followers to be a perfectly good and omnipotent deity

You forgot that the Jewish Faith doesn't attach omnibenevolence to their deity.

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We will take, for instance, the Greek Gods, since these are the ones who I am most familiar with. Athena, when defeated and insulted (or just defeated, or so I've heard from some sources, but we'll assume that she was insulted as well) by Arachne, turned her opponent into a spider.

Nuri and I debated this once.

There is a code of behavior that those who follow the Greek Deities agree to. (Damnit. Why can't I remember the name?!)

Arachne violated that code.

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Artemis, when seen naked by a man, would hunt him down and kill him.

See above.

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There was, of course, all kinds of rape going on, and Zeus was completely unfaithful to his wife.

That one is a little tricky. It might fall under the same code of conduct, it might not.

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Loki, for instance (though I'm not sure I'd necessarily conside him evil, he's no Mother Theresa),

I'd actually contest this, on two grounds. First, most educated Asatru will agree that the Monks who translated the Eddas enjoyed painting Loki as a "devil" figure.

Further- when you look at the code of conduct presented in the Eddas- it's pretty well excepted that Odin violated his oath, Loki acted within his rights- even if the Hospitality was mistreated.

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and Set, or such is my understanding, though again, I realize that Set was not always portrayed as completely evil even in ancient Egyptian writings.

Not really a big Kermetic Buff.

My understanding of Set comes from a point of justification of betrayal. It's hard to make a judgment based on only one part of the mythos you know?

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I don't know much about Hindu mythology, but there are those who believe that part of worshipping Kali is strangling people - and that necklace of skulls must have come from somewhere.

Kali is an interesting diety.

She's like a wild fire. She destroys but her dance of destruction makes room for new life.

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1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

My morality and that of my faith doesn't extend beyond the situation at hand.

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2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship "Malevolent" gods?

Define worship for the sake of this thread. I practice a bribing tradition with one deity that I would not ever consider "worshiping".

As to the morality of it? Well, "She has been a Guardian of the Domari since the beginning of time (tm)"- it would be improper for me to junk the tradition that is part of my role within my community.

Further- considering the cultural context, it would be a betrayal as well.

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3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

Heavens no.

In fact- I am expected to call my deities on their s**t. Just like they do in kind to me.  

[Triste-chan]

TeaDidikai

Triste-chan

While YHVH is considered by his followers to be a perfectly good and omnipotent deity

You forgot that the Jewish Faith doesn't attach omnibenevolence to their deity.

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We will take, for instance, the Greek Gods, since these are the ones who I am most familiar with. Athena, when defeated and insulted (or just defeated, or so I've heard from some sources, but we'll assume that she was insulted as well) by Arachne, turned her opponent into a spider.

Nuri and I debated this once.

There is a code of behavior that those who follow the Greek Deities agree to. (Damnit. Why can't I remember the name?!)

Arachne violated that code.

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Artemis, when seen naked by a man, would hunt him down and kill him.

See above.

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There was, of course, all kinds of rape going on, and Zeus was completely unfaithful to his wife.

That one is a little tricky. It might fall under the same code of conduct, it might not.

As far as the Greek things go, I think the issue most people has isn't so much that the gods were against being seen naked and/or being pwnt/insulted. I think most people take issue with the fact that their reaction was to kill/turn into spider. There's a rule in my house that my brother won't download pornography, for instance, but when he does, our first thought isn't to call the hounds and whip out the bow and arrows, you know.

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Loki, for instance (though I'm not sure I'd necessarily conside him evil, he's no Mother Theresa),

I'd actually contest this, on two grounds. First, most educated Asatru will agree that the Monks who translated the Eddas enjoyed painting Loki as a "devil" figure.

Further- when you look at the code of conduct presented in the Eddas- it's pretty well excepted that Odin violated his oath, Loki acted within his rights- even if the Hospitality was mistreated.

Again, I know he isn't evil, or even what you'd call malevolent, but those who lean more towards white-light paths tend to dislike him. And most Norse gods, come to think of it. You know, except for Freya, the happy moon goddess of love and light and shimmery good things tra la la la la Freya is a goddess so she must be associated with the moon I READ IT IN A BOOK SOMEWHERE YOU KNOW.

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and Set, or such is my understanding, though again, I realize that Set was not always portrayed as completely evil even in ancient Egyptian writings.

Not really a big Kermetic Buff.

My understanding of Set comes from a point of justification of betrayal. It's hard to make a judgment based on only one part of the mythos you know?

My understanding is that the Egyptian perception of Set changed over time, and that it wasn't necessarily OMG EBIL XTIANS portraying him as evil. But I'm not an expert on these things by any stretch.

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I don't know much about Hindu mythology, but there are those who believe that part of worshipping Kali is strangling people - and that necklace of skulls must have come from somewhere.

Kali is an interesting diety.

She's like a wild fire. She destroys but her dance of destruction makes room for new life.

True. That's tricky territory, though - using that logic, couldn't you say that all killing is okay? Or that Eugenics through genocide are acceptable?

Again, not making moral judgements. I don't know much about Kali, and even if I did, I don't feel it's my place to make any moral judgement.

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1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

My morality and that of my faith doesn't extend beyond the situation at hand.

Guh?

Are you saying that you don't apply your morals to others, or am I misinterpreting?

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2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship "Malevolent" gods?

Define worship for the sake of this thread. I practice a bribing tradition with one deity that I would not ever consider "worshiping".

As to the morality of it? Well, "She has been a Guardian of the Domari since the beginning of time (tm)"- it would be improper for me to junk the tradition that is part of my role within my community.

Further- considering the cultural context, it would be a betrayal as well.

I see.

As far as worship, that's a good question. I say 'worship,' but I suppose I really mean 'having a non-adversarial relationship with,' whether that means a more businesslike relationship or a personal relationship or a master/servant relationship or whatever.

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3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

Heavens no.

In fact- I am expected to call my deities on their s**t. Just like they do in kind to me.

So that's how you got so good at it. xd
Edit: AAAAAH IT'S MATCHES ON YOUR AVATAR heart xd

Well, maybe not. BUT STILL. DEAR GOD, THE CUTE.  

[TeaDidikai]

Triste-chan

As far as the Greek things go, I think the issue most people has isn't so much that the gods were against being seen naked and/or being pwnt/insulted. I think most people take issue with the fact that their reaction was to kill/turn into spider. There's a rule in my house that my brother won't download pornography, for instance, but when he does, our first thought isn't to call the hounds and whip out the bow and arrows, you know.

Lacking cultural context then. In our culture- such isn't okay.

Even a few hundred years ago- someone spying on a nude royal might have their life ended.

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Again, I know he isn't evil, or even what you'd call malevolent, but those who lean more towards white-light paths tend to dislike him. And most Norse gods, come to think of it. You know, except for Freya, the happy moon goddess of love and light and shimmery good things tra la la la la Freya is a goddess so she must be associated with the moon I READ IT IN A BOOK SOMEWHERE YOU KNOW.

I actually met an Asatru who said they "only deal with good gods".

I blinked a couple times and asked him how he managed to be Asatru.

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My understanding is that the Egyptian perception of Set changed over time, and that it wasn't necessarily OMG EBIL XTIANS portraying him as evil. But I'm not an expert on these things by any stretch.

There's this whole thing with his wife sleeping around and stuff. Can't say really. But considering that I think Texas still has laws on the books that allow a husband to shoot an unfaithful wife and her lover if he catches them in the marriage bed... I don't think it's too different.

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True. That's tricky territory, though - using that logic, couldn't you say that all killing is okay? Or that Eugenics through genocide are acceptable?

Again, not making moral judgements. I don't know much about Kali, and even if I did, I don't feel it's my place to make any moral judgement.

Accept- the point of Eugenics and genocide is by it's nature irrational hatred.

Kali is an equal opertunity distructive force.

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Guh?

Are you saying that you don't apply your morals to others, or am I misinterpreting?

That wasn't what I was saying- but it is true as well. I apply other people's morals to themselves.

What I was saying is that the merits and banes of a given action as "moral" or not is only taken within the context of the situation at hand.

"You killed a man!"

I shot the guy who raped me. Justified

"You killed a man!"

I shot a guy who said he didn't like my shirt. Not Justified.

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I see.

As far as worship, that's a good question. I say 'worship,' but I suppose I really mean 'having a non-adversarial relationship with,' whether that means a more businesslike relationship or a personal relationship or a master/servant relationship or whatever.

I dislike your definition. But I'll work with it for the sake of the thread.

No. I don't find it to be wrong.
Sometimes we are called to work with beings we do not want to.

Consider it a conflict in Dharma if you will. On the one hand to hold action X is wrong, but holding action Y is worse and there is no third option that is better than either.

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So that's how you got so good at it. xd
Edit: AAAAAH IT'S MATCHES ON YOUR AVATAR heart xd

Well, maybe not. BUT STILL. DEAR GOD, THE CUTE.

Huh? What?  

[Triste-chan]

TeaDidikai

Triste-chan

As far as the Greek things go, I think the issue most people has isn't so much that the gods were against being seen naked and/or being pwnt/insulted. I think most people take issue with the fact that their reaction was to kill/turn into spider. There's a rule in my house that my brother won't download pornography, for instance, but when he does, our first thought isn't to call the hounds and whip out the bow and arrows, you know.

Lacking cultural context then. In our culture- such isn't okay.

Even a few hundred years ago- someone spying on a nude royal might have their life ended.

Yes, but most Hellenists that I know tend to follow more modern moral codes.

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Again, I know he isn't evil, or even what you'd call malevolent, but those who lean more towards white-light paths tend to dislike him. And most Norse gods, come to think of it. You know, except for Freya, the happy moon goddess of love and light and shimmery good things tra la la la la Freya is a goddess so she must be associated with the moon I READ IT IN A BOOK SOMEWHERE YOU KNOW.

I actually met an Asatru who said they "only deal with good gods".

I blinked a couple times and asked him how he managed to be Asatru.

LOL ODIN IS GOD OF MAGICAL PONIES AND STUFF TEE HEE

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My understanding is that the Egyptian perception of Set changed over time, and that it wasn't necessarily OMG EBIL XTIANS portraying him as evil. But I'm not an expert on these things by any stretch.

There's this whole thing with his wife sleeping around and stuff. Can't say really. But considering that I think Texas still has laws on the books that allow a husband to shoot an unfaithful wife and her lover if he catches them in the marriage bed... I don't think it's too different.

WOW okay.

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True. That's tricky territory, though - using that logic, couldn't you say that all killing is okay? Or that Eugenics through genocide are acceptable?

Again, not making moral judgements. I don't know much about Kali, and even if I did, I don't feel it's my place to make any moral judgement.

Accept- the point of Eugenics and genocide is by it's nature irrational hatred.

Kali is an equal opertunity distructive force.

Conceded.

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Guh?

Are you saying that you don't apply your morals to others, or am I misinterpreting?

That wasn't what I was saying- but it is true as well. I apply other people's morals to themselves.

What I was saying is that the merits and banes of a given action as "moral" or not is only taken within the context of the situation at hand.

"You killed a man!"

I shot the guy who raped me. Justified

"You killed a man!"

I shot a guy who said he didn't like my shirt. Not Justified.

Ah. Gotcha.

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I see.

As far as worship, that's a good question. I say 'worship,' but I suppose I really mean 'having a non-adversarial relationship with,' whether that means a more businesslike relationship or a personal relationship or a master/servant relationship or whatever.

I dislike your definition. But I'll work with it for the sake of the thread.

No. I don't find it to be wrong.
Sometimes we are called to work with beings we do not want to.

Consider it a conflict in Dharma if you will. On the one hand to hold action X is wrong, but holding action Y is worse and there is no third option that is better than either.

Well, it's not really my definition of 'worship.' I just didn't think it through, so I used the word worship. It was a bad choice of words, in hindsight.

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So that's how you got so good at it. xd
Edit: AAAAAH IT'S MATCHES ON YOUR AVATAR heart xd

Well, maybe not. BUT STILL. DEAR GOD, THE CUTE.

Huh? What?

That's how you got good at calling people on their s**t.

And your little dragon thingy. I just noticed it.  

[midara the happy banshee]

TeaDidikai

There is a code of behavior that those who follow the Greek Deities agree to. (Damnit. Why can't I remember the name?!)

Thinking of Eusebeia?  

[TeaDidikai]

Triste-chan

Yes, but most Hellenists that I know tend to follow more modern moral codes.

It is my understanding of what I would call Hellenic Hospitality that they were expected to follow the moral codes of the land they were in.

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LOL ODIN IS GOD OF MAGICAL PONIES AND STUFF TEE HEE

Where is Deo when you need her siggy?

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That's how you got good at calling people on their s**t.

Ah. No. It is because I am good at it that I am on this path. Not the other way around.

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And your little dragon thingy. I just noticed it.

While I do admit he does look like Matches... his name is actually Schmendric.

midara the happy banshee

TeaDidikai

There is a code of behavior that those who follow the Greek Deities agree to. (Damnit. Why can't I remember the name?!)

Thinking of Eusebeia?

I think so.

Nuri?  

[Ezinu]

My way of seeing things you gotta have the good with the bad or there would be no balance the scale has to be equal on each side to or it tips you know. No you dont have to worship a "malevolent" god as alot choose not to, but it is in no way wrong to worship them just because you worship them dosnt mean you have to act like them. As far as the gods doing something that i find moraly wrong well humanity installed my morals in me well most of them so what i find moraly wrong may not be on the same standards as the gods just as what i find ok to do or right might not be the same maby i should have stood up to someone and smacked them around when i was insulted instead of shruging it off. You have to consider your culeral experiances as well as religiouse when you look at morals really.  

[Molly Mollusca]

TeaDidikai

Triste-chan

LOL ODIN IS GOD OF MAGICAL PONIES AND STUFF TEE HEE

Where is Deo when you need her siggy?

ninja I am so going to insult people with this drawing... Sorry sorry sorry... cry  

[saint dreya]

Triste-chan

We will take, for instance, the Greek Gods, since these are the ones who I am most familiar with. Athena, when defeated and insulted (or just defeated, or so I've heard from some sources, but we'll assume that she was insulted as well) by Arachne, turned her opponent into a spider.

from what i remember, Arachne was bragging about her skill at weaving, which Athene reminded her was a gift from the gods (i believe in Athene's domain as well). Arachne said 'poo poo', i'm better than any god or mortal at weaving, and dared to challenge her. the stories differ after that, but more common, she depicted in her tapestry a further insult to the gods.

Triste-chan

I don't know much about Hindu mythology, but there are those who believe that part of worshipping Kali is strangling people - and that necklace of skulls must have come from somewhere.

demons, i believe.

Triste-chan

And depending on who you ask, any god or goddess of war would be 'bad,' although at this point we are moving into white-lighter territory.

meh. that would have to be looked at in a cultural or societal way. some of the gods of war had other qualities that lended themselves well to the people (Mars, who was also god of agriculture).

Triste-chan

1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

hmm. i don't know about that. there are some things i don't like that some of them may have done, however, putting them up against the morals i hold myself to is not exactly appropriate. there's the time issue; when they perpetrated that specific action, perhaps the time warranted it. perhaps even the society warranted it. my morals aren't universal. they are personal.

if a being spouts out certain morals they hold to, but then doesn't when the time comes to demonstrate that, then i would consider it 'wrong'.

Triste-chan

2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship "Malevolent" gods?

different strokes for different folks, different roles for different poles. some might view certain gods as 'malevolent', meanwhile others might view them as performing a certain function.

i think we'd have to further clarify what malevolent might mean in this instance to get a more specific answer.

Triste-chan

3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

hmm. worship, or homage. there are a number of gods i worship. there are a number that i will attempt to placate to make my life a little easier, if i can.

"non-adversarial relationship with"...i don't think that extends to emulating the deity though. even within worshipping, it is up to the individual, from my perspective, if they want to attempt copy them. i don't believe it's an assumed however.  

[TeaDidikai]

mouseyanna

My way of seeing things you gotta have the good with the bad or there would be no balance the scale has to be equal on each side to or it tips you know.

Wait- as you ascribe "Balance" as a positive thing- even when everything is in "Balance" you tip the scales because by virtue of it being Balanced it is then "good".  

[Triste-chan]

phoenix shadowwolf

Triste-chan

We will take, for instance, the Greek Gods, since these are the ones who I am most familiar with. Athena, when defeated and insulted (or just defeated, or so I've heard from some sources, but we'll assume that she was insulted as well) by Arachne, turned her opponent into a spider.

from what i remember, Arachne was bragging about her skill at weaving, which Athene reminded her was a gift from the gods (i believe in Athene's domain as well). Arachne said 'poo poo', i'm better than any god or mortal at weaving, and dared to challenge her. the stories differ after that, but more common, she depicted in her tapestry a further insult to the gods.

That's the version I know as well. It was nasty of Arachne, but the spider thing was kind of overkill.

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Triste-chan

I don't know much about Hindu mythology, but there are those who believe that part of worshipping Kali is strangling people - and that necklace of skulls must have come from somewhere.

demons, i believe.

If you're refering to asura, then I would say that they aren't necessarily evil in the sense that western demons are. Or such is my understanding.

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Triste-chan

And depending on who you ask, any god or goddess of war would be 'bad,' although at this point we are moving into white-lighter territory.

meh. that would have to be looked at in a cultural or societal way. some of the gods of war had other qualities that lended themselves well to the people (Mars, who was also god of agriculture).

AND PONIES????!1!!?!?1!/1  

[Molly Mollusca]

triste-chan

Tea???(will be edited)

Triste-chan

And depending on who you ask, any god or goddess of war would be 'bad,' although at this point we are moving into white-lighter territory.

meh. that would have to be looked at in a cultural or societal way. some of the gods of war had other qualities that lended themselves well to the people (Mars, who was also god of agriculture).

AND PONIES????!1!!?!?1!/1

Protector of the cattle that would be.

wikiwikiwikiwiki

Mars was the Roman god of war, the son of Juno and either Jupiter or a magical flower. As the word Mars has no Indo-European derivation, it is most likely the Latinized form of the agricultural Etruscan god Maris. Initially the Roman god of fertility and vegetation and a protector of cattle, fields and boundaries, Mars later became associated with battle (perhaps as the growing Roman Empire found it necessary to expand in order to feed itself) and identified with the Greek god Ares. He was also a tutelary god of Rome, and as the legendary father of its founder, Romulus, it was believed that all Romans were descended of Mars.

[Cite]  

[Kuroiban]

Triste-chan

And depending on who you ask, any god or goddess of war would be 'bad,' although at this point we are moving into white-lighter territory.

Note that I am not making any moral judgement on any gods or any worshippers of any gods. Here are the questions I have:

Basically everything in the universe can have a good version or a bad version. It all depends on how you tilt your perspective. I woudn't call Rape a good thing...but if pre-historic man HADN'T raped, there'd probably be no post-historic man. Likewise, knowledge is usually viewed as something great and wonderful...but knowledged has started just as much fuss and trouble as war, such as nuclear and atomic weapons.

Triste-chan

1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

Unable to answer that, as I'm currently a rather aimless Pagan. All I can say I'm really aware of in a spirtual sense is my spirit guide...and he/she hardly counts as a God/dess

Triste-chan

2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship so-called "Malevolent" gods, who are 'bad' by conventional standards? By your own moral standards?

No, mostly for the reasons above; no action can be universaly praised or condemned. Further, if bad things didn't have a "patron", who would you ask for help in avoiding that sort of thing?

Triste-chan

3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

Not unviersally at least. I fail to think of circumstance that it would be advisable, but I rarely like to make sweeping generlizations.

Elfin Brill

ninja I am so going to insult people with this drawing... Sorry sorry sorry... cry

eek ....
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Triste-chan

That's the version I know as well. It was nasty of Arachne, but the spider thing was kind of overkill.

Serriously though...if you go around calling out gods...I mean...isn't overkill what you should expect?  

[Starlock]

1) Is there anything that your gods have done that you find to be morally wrong? Do you think that this is acceptable or justified because they are gods rather than men?

For the first part, why should the divine, natural laws, or other people conform to my sense of morality? If they did I'd be horrified. I guess I find whether I personally think divine actions are 'moral' to be irrelevant partly because of how I conceptualize the divine (that is, natural forces, minimal if not devoid of personification found in polythestic pantheons). Asking if the hurricane that hit the gulf coast was moral makes about as much sense as asking if brushing my teeth is moral. Nature just is the way she IS, end of story.

As for the second part... any act can be morally "justified" in one way or another, regardless of what you're talking about. There is good and ill inherent in all actions. Any action is a change, and change neccessitates generation and destruction in some way or form. What one labels as "good" and "bad" depends on perspective. Question becomes, then, which perspective to use? In the end, perhaps the only one you can truly use is your own, eh?

2) Do you believe that it is wrong to worship so-called "Malevolent" gods, who are 'bad' by conventional standards? By your own moral standards?

Of course it isn't wrong to worship "malevolent" Gods. But then, beliefs aren't always as important as consequences. I'd like to know what the result is of honoring such deities (both to exclusion and balanced with "benevolent" deities) in actions. Honoring/worshiping something doesn't mean you morally agree with it, for instance. It might just mean you apprechiate the neccessity of things considered "malevolent" in the maintenence of the cycles of existence. Context, context. =)

3) Do you believe that worshipping a deity means that you should use them as an example of how to act, the way Christians ask themselves what Jesus would do and try to act that way?

Depends on personal taste. Some take it this way, surely, though not all do. That's why above I questioned consequences of the beliefs rather than the belief itself. I get the sense in general, though, that Neopagans don't look to their deities as moral exemplars. Rather, they tend to believe that morality isn't a strictly religious phenomena and draw upon nonreligious sources for their sense of morality. Can't say I've ever heard of any Pagan asking "What would Zeus do?" in a sittuation (laughs).