Without definition?

[~DeZuKi SoNoRaN~]

Just a thought bug for you all:

A yaoi/sho-ai relationship in which there is no seme, and there is no uke. Such definition does make things easier, but aren't always true to real life. This does not mean characters that can be either seme or uke, or even in those categories at all. Mutual or whatever you want to call it, does it truly exist?  

[For-Chan Cookie]

Yaoi is pretty stereotypical by nature. It's a fantasy, not a reflection of reality, therefore you have the over-romanticized roles of seme and uke, pushed to the point where often times it might as well be man and woman. But again, yaoi is a romance genre, a fantasy of women. It's not meant to reflect real life.

Of course, in real life you'll find plenty of switch relationships were both partners go both ways. But since yaoi is not real life, you're going to get stuck with the same old stuff. People get stuck in stereotypes, and I think it's a crime that it happens so often, but that's just how it goes.  

[White_DarknessXX]

I like yaoi alot..
And shounen-ai...
but really...I know quite a lot of ukeish
guys..and theyre really kawaii...

~glomps person above me.~  

[UlooAloo]

Yes, it exists. Its much cuter when there is no definate role. <3  

[kagetsukii]

i love Yaoi its sooo cool i just love it they guys are so cute when they kiss =^.^=  

[kawaii_chibi]

For-Chan Cookie

Yaoi is pretty stereotypical by nature. It's a fantasy, not a reflection of reality, therefore you have the over-romanticized roles of seme and uke, pushed to the point where often times it might as well be man and woman. But again, yaoi is a romance genre, a fantasy of women. It's not meant to reflect real life.

Of course, in real life you'll find plenty of switch relationships were both partners go both ways. But since yaoi is not real life, you're going to get stuck with the same old stuff. People get stuck in stereotypes, and I think it's a crime that it happens so often, but that's just how it goes.

I totally agree with you.

Sure there might be one of them that looks more feminine and reminds us of a uke. But it doesn't mean that he'll always be on the bottom, he could very well always be on top or be both like in most real life relationship. The problem is that people just love to hang on stereotypes and believe in them.  

[[OMFG NARKI]]

You mean, as in a seke-x-seke thing where things actually work and look like it should in a fairly normal homosexual relationship? Without the wheeping ultra-feminine uke and the übermensch seme that's simply tremendous in stature? In other words, a refreshing and more down to earth aproach to gay love in anime? Sign me up!  

[Dultae]

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

In my gay relationships that I write, I try to make the characters as developed in themselves as possible--some feminine characteristics, some masculine. Sure, one's probably gonna be more feminine or masculine than the other. But their relationship is about more than the little girl and the big strong protector. It's a give-and-take, a balance, and a mutual respect. That's something I don't see in a lot of seme/uke yaoi.  

[[OMFG NARKI]]

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

*Insert round of applause here*  

[ShadowedMoonlight]

Seke/seke is how it usually works in real life. I like the seme/uke thing though. In relationships I like to see one person more dominant, no matter what the genders. A yuri couple with a dominant female, a het couple with either the male or the female dominant, yaoi with a dominant male, whatever. I just prefer to see relationships where one memeber is clearly more in charge. Probably because that's the way I'd like to have a relationship...  

[blackcatluck]

Narki

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

*Insert round of applause here*

*joins in and adds a few whistles and cheers*  

[Dultae]

blackcatluck

Narki

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

*Insert round of applause here*

*joins in and adds a few whistles and cheers*

*bows* Thank you, thank you, you're too kind.  

[Erran]

>>
<<
...........
>.<;;

I have to admit, I only fuel the stereotypes with some of my own characters. Mind you, I KIND OF disprove them as well, with some of the other characters. If THAT makes sense.

ie, Erran is THE ULTIMATE UKE. Essentially. He's a very feminine boy, with long, pretty hair and very delicate features. He's even good with most domestic housework, although there's at least an excuse for that. (Oldschool version of him was a slave for most of his early life, while Modern him was forced to cook and clean for his step-father, Cinderella-style.) He does have a tiny little aggressive corner --'snot big enough to be a side, y'see-- that some partners in RPs I've done have tried to provoke, although often to no avail, as he's also incredibly shy and modest.

Meanwhile, though, Kiki is generally something of a seke, despite his girly name. He prefers to top, but will happily bottom in a pinch, so to speak. >>;; He's overall a pretty normal guy (who did in fact work as a drag queen at one point in his life) who likes other guys. Depending on the preference of his partner, he'll take top or bottom, or even both at once. <3 So yeah. He's a seke if ever there was one. Not that he's really very normal, though, in modern-day man standards.
After all, he's an ex-drag queen vampiric assassin.

But yeah. *ramble ramble* I also know a couple of gay guys whom I know will switch off. HOWEVER, I also know a gay guy who refuses to bottom, and could easily take the label "seme." So I guess it really all depends.  

[Sephiroths samurai girl]

Sheltigrrl

I personally dislike the seme/uke idea quite a bit. I think it reinforces the stereotype that there MUST be a Man and a Woman in a relationship--whether there's actually a female or not--and not only is unrealistic, it also reinforces the idea that women have a specific place in a relationship. Basically, it says that there can only be one kind of relationship: dominant (man) and submissive (woman).

One word for that: sexist.

But the terms are there to show who is the man and who is the female in the relationship, not to give the idea of such a stereotype.

People have to remember Yaoi and BL was never made to be true to actual homosexual relationships, its a heterosexual relationship but made to appear more equal by having the woman replaced by a man. Hence why BL is not aimed at homosexual men but women.

In Japan women are seen as being inferior to men in relationships, so the idea of BL was created to let women read about romantic relationships that are portrayed as being somewhat more equal by there being two men instead of a man and a woman.
The terms seme and uke don't reffer to who is the more dominant but who is the giver of the technique [seme] and who is the reciever [uke].
Seeing as the woman can never be the "giver" in sex she would have to be the uke.

What you write sounds a lot more like gei-comi than anything. Gei-comi is somewhat like yaoi in being graphic but stops there. It doesn't have "bishies" and definitely doesn't have the seme/uke characters.
If you look in Gei-comi none of the series have these labels. Why? Because gei-comi series show a more accurate portrayal of a homosexual relationship. It isn't just a hetero relationship changed but real homosexual relationships.
You'd never see a series with characters like Ayase and Kanou from No Money in gei-comi.

Hope I explained that well enough. ^^  

[aldfjaadsfljadslfj]

i think a mutual is only possible with 2 semes. i dont care what anyone sais. EVERYONE is either uke or seme