Gothic Lolita - in a league of their own?

[Celria]

I find gothic lolita fasion to be absolutely beautiful, it looks lovely to me, and I always saw it as gothic, just a different kind, you know like punk, romantic etc.

I decided my interest had peaked far enough that I'd go look at some of the lolita guilds, and I was kind of surprised at the apparent differences in the culture. They do regard themselves as expressing themselves in a way they like, that is different from society, and they have alot of the problems that the teenage goth faces. (Their parents, and pastor thinking of them as the devil for wearing black.) but the attitude seems so different.

Apparently Elegant Gothic Lolita ladies are to act in all ways proper, they are not to swear, they are to be submissive and passive. They are to be in all respects a lady or a child from the victorian era, seen and not heard.

Gothics, the ones I relate to, seem so much rougher then that. We seem cruder, I mean, not to the point of going out in the streets and yelling swearwords and so forth, but we seem to have more leeway and can be more casual.

Is Gothic Lolita a kind of goth? Or at least, would you define them as a kind?

Im not sure. ^^  

[Illuminee]

I would say they are a different type of goth but, they are. It's just like how we are all human, but we have different personalities, etc. Gothic lolitas come from the early 17th century, as I heard from my friends at school, and at that time, a lot of witchcraft had been going on.

They might have been witches at that time too.

eek

 

[Celria]

I suppose it comes down to that age old, and oft argued question 'what is a goth.'

Forgive me if I'm wrong though, but I don't beleive that Gothic Lolita originated in the 17th at all. It started in Japan by Japanese girl emulating the china dolls from the victorian era. According to google, it started around 1997.  

[Illuminee]

=P Well, speculations say that "lolitas" are one thing, but "gothic lolitas" are another.

It's quite difficult to actually define "goth" but I guess it's up to us.
Gothic lolitas might have been around at the 17th century but brought back to the 21st century by the Japanese girls.

^-^ I'm taking a guess.

 

[MortSanglant]

The Gothic Lolita style models some of the clothing ideas from older eras, but you are right, Celria, it's a newer thing.

I never really thought about them as not being part of the Gothic subculture. But I never considered them identical to it either. I know what you are saying about the differences in attitude.

I believe it all comes down to how much of the lifestyle/subculture you let consume your existence. Being serious about the lolita lifestyle, you will behave as a more objectlike creature. But a lot of people only engage in it for the thrill of the aesthetics.

But to answer your question, I would consider them a different breed. A more respectable breed in fact.

 

[GilAskan]

I know a bit about gohtic-lolita myself.

Is it goth? Well, sort of. It's not an individual culture, it's a popular trend. There is quite a bit of overlap with goth, as more and more goth women are following the trend.

It was started in Japan in 1996, by Mana, guitarist to the japanese band "Malice Mizer". Mana was famous for eerie cross-dressing, and he hit it biggest with "goshikurori" (gothic loli), a fashion line he designed himself.

Mana:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/Music_manasan.jpg

Here's his official fashion site:
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/jpop/essentials/mmm/

He's also designed and worn "Gothic Aristocrat", a male equivalent to some point.

So, to my knowledge, it's not actually a culture or subculture, but a fashion style. To my knowledge, I repeat. I do know a few goth women who follow it.  

[Celria]

I contest the history you have just given me. <3

Malice Mizer certainly made gothic lolita more popular, and coined the terms 'elegant gothic lolita' and 'elegant gothic aristocrat' but it was not invented by them. I've been researching Gothic Lolita all night you see, and from what I have found Gothic Lolita existed in Visual Kei (a genre of Japanese rock) but was only put into stores after Mana made it popular.

The line Mana made was not 'goshikurori' he just made a line in that style. His clothing line is called Moi meme Moite.

Visual Kei:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_kei

A nicely informative article:
http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/weekly_article/gothic-lolita-the-primer.htm  

[Choboxer]

stare I wouldnt say it to be a type of Goth at all.
Goth no matter what the explanion is, came from a musical background.
True Mana did kick start the Gothic Lolita, but Harajuku was a trend dating back to the 80's.

For those of you who dont know or think "what does Gwen Stefani have to do with this"

Harajuku was a bunch of teens who used to get dressed up crazy and chill around a train station by the same name and get attention. After a while Tourists would come to see the crazy teens, gee golly. This trend quicky lost popularity in the late 90's...it evolved into Gothic Lolita



Harajuku was just Japan's verson of the Club kid. Gothic Lolita steams from Harajuku.

Follow my math

Clubkid < Goth (if you dont know what a club kid is...raverClubkid=Harajuku=Gothic lolita
Gothic Lolita < Goth

Not that Im bashing the culture, its just not the same.  

[MortSanglant]

Correction:

Harajuku is a shopping district located near the Harajuku station in Tokyo, Japan. It's a popular spot for Gothic Lolita and Aristocrats to convene.

If all goes well I'll be going there next summer.

 

[Choboxer]

MortSanglant

Correction:

Harajuku is a shopping district located near the Harajuku station in Tokyo, Japan. It's a popular spot for Gothic Lolita and Aristocrats to convene.

If all goes well I'll be going there next summer.

stare theres a station in the shopping district, silly  

[MortSanglant]

Nyed

MortSanglant

Correction:

Harajuku is a shopping district located near the Harajuku station in Tokyo, Japan. It's a popular spot for Gothic Lolita and Aristocrats to convene.

If all goes well I'll be going there next summer.

stare theres a station in the shopping district, silly

I mentioned the station too, silly.

whee

I was mainly pointing out that it's referencing the place, not the people in it.

 

[.+Melanthios+.]

hmmm...i guess i would consider them gothic....but let me get this straight; we're not talking about baby doll lolita are we? were talking about gothloli right?  

[Choboxer]

miturn

hmmm...i guess i would consider them gothic....but let me get this straight; we're not talking about baby doll lolita are we? were talking about gothloli right?

we're talking....
 

[GilAskan]

Celria

The line Mana made was not 'goshikurori' he just made a line in that style. His clothing line is called Moi meme Moite.

Thank you for correcting me. I was under the impression that Moi meme Moite was the name of the store or distributor which carried the clothes line, rather than the clothes line itself. I can read and understand quite a bit of Japanese (I would say I "speak" Japanese, but my actual speaking skills are sorely lacking), and most Japanese sites I've seen have referred to his clothes as gothic-lolita, which I assumed was the label, but is in fact the style. Makes much more sense now....  

[GilAskan]

Nyed

miturn

hmmm...i guess i would consider them gothic....but let me get this straight; we're not talking about baby doll lolita are we? were talking about gothloli right?

we're talking....

...I'm not gay, but I have to admit, that man is sexy.