Magical vs. Mundane

[Triste-chan]

So I was in the Wiccan FAQ and someone asked for advice for her friend, who apparently was experiencing something like night terrors. The poster seemed to think that this could be something supernatural. I say this as an atheist and a skeptic of anything magical, supernatural, or generally without proof, but for the sake of discussion we'll say that magic exists and that it works.

Anyway, I gave her this advce:

I

...you need to have your friend see a doctor if she hasn't already. When it comes to things like this, you always look for mundane help before searching for another route, simply because modern medicine, when it does work, is much more of a sure thing.

If you do go to a doctor and he doesn't come up with any results or can't help you, then and only then would I supplement (not replace) medical care with spiritual/magical/whatever care. Remember that while doctors are not perfect, they also are a lot more experienced than you are when it comes to dealing with illnesses.

Now, even putting aside my lack of belief in magic, this is what I firmly believe. I am rather interested in what you all have to say on the subject, though.

- Do you believe that magical healing techniques are more or less effective than mundane ones?
- Can magical techniques work to help 'mundane' illnesses, or only 'magical' afflictions like possession?
- Damn I'm cool.

GO  

[Kuroiban]

Triste-chan

So I was in the Wiccan FAQ and someone asked for advice for her friend, who apparently was experiencing something like night terrors. The poster seemed to think that this could be something supernatural. I say this as an atheist and a skeptic of anything magical, supernatural, or generally without proof, but for the sake of discussion we'll say that magic exists and that it works.

Anyway, I gave her this advce:

I

...you need to have your friend see a doctor if she hasn't already. When it comes to things like this, you always look for mundane help before searching for another route, simply because modern medicine, when it does work, is much more of a sure thing.

If you do go to a doctor and he doesn't come up with any results or can't help you, then and only then would I supplement (not replace) medical care with spiritual/magical/whatever care. Remember that while doctors are not perfect, they also are a lot more experienced than you are when it comes to dealing with illnesses.

Now, even putting aside my lack of belief in magic, this is what I firmly believe. I am rather interested in what you all have to say on the subject, though.

- Do you believe that magical healing techniques are more or less effective than mundane ones?
- Can magical techniques work to help 'mundane' illnesses, or only 'magical' afflictions like possession?
- Damn I'm cool.

GO

I think both need to be used in synch personaly. Doctors are great and everything, but so many of them have their cranium loged so far up their a**s that they can't see much of anything worthwhile.

I'm not anti-doctor by any means, but I have seen the medical profession do just as much harm as good. I have seen some doctors walk into a room absolutely sure of what is wrong, without having ever actually taking a look at the paitent. I've also seen doctors give a paitent absolutely no respect or credabbility when it comes to describing their own problems.

I'm not saying that this is a constant; their are plenty of doctors who do good work and act like the resonsiable professionals their profession is supposed to be made up of. However, sometimes you have to play roulette when it comes to finding them. There is also the matter of affording healthcare as well.

I think both physical and metaphysical care shoul be used in synch, provided they don't dirrectly contradict each other in some manor. In any event, a lot of ritual magic suggests actively working towards what you wish to happen anyway.

If you are searching for a cure to a situation, going out there and doing something is only sensiable.  

[Triste-chan]

It's certainly true that a lot of doctors are idiots, but I don't think it's ever a good idea to take an illness and replace mundane medical care with magical care. Just like I don't think people should pray instead of going to a doctor when they have cancer, I don't think they should use magic instead either.  

[Neko_Bast]

I haven't had any luck with "magical healling," but I frecuently use herbal remedies. A little magic with it is nice but not required.  

[PurpleDragonsGems]

I like to think of herbal remidies as more preventive or just for the little things. If I have say, a minor tooth ache or stomach ache, I'll head into an herbal pantry. If I've been vomiting for more than a day, I'm goin' to the E.R. or my family doc. Healing magic can be done to boost the effects of mundane healing meathods.

~edit~ Example: A friend of mine recently went in for eye surgery, so I looked up what stone would be good to magicly charge for healing the eyes. Luckly I found one that I already had, charged it, and she carried it into surgery with her. (She came up with the perfect idea of holding it under her breast during the surgery, because her gown had no pockets)  

[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Pelta]

I have a lot of respect for Reiki and alternative medicines, but when I break my leg I'm going to the emergency room before I run to an acupuncturist. As much as I trust a skilled Reiki practitioner, when it comes to setting bones or stopping a plague I'll head to a qualified doctor.

Even for things like allergies I'll take stuff like Benadryl before trusting my health to magic. Mostly because I don't have the best track record when it comes to healing myself, but also because it works so well. I could have sniffles all day from hayfever, or I could have twice as many sniffles all day because some well meaning witch covered me in incense (which I'm allergic to). Modern medicine has saved my life several times and as an asthmatic I'm going to trust my ventolin and nebuliser before any other system because I could die if I don't.

It's just common sense.  

[TeaDidikai]

missmagpie

I have a lot of respect for Reiki and alternative medicines, but when I break my leg I'm going to the emergency room before I run to an acupuncturist. As much as I trust a skilled Reiki practitioner, when it comes to setting bones or stopping a plague I'll head to a qualified doctor.

Which is what any Reiki Master or even the most novice of Initiates would tell you to do anyway.

First lesson on your first day of Reiki attunements pretty much states that you don't apply Reiki to a broken bone unless it is already set.

I fully admit my bias on the subject isn't rational. Part of it comes from being raised with the understanding that if you're on your death bed already- what's the harm in letting a doctor poke you? wink

Emergancy Medicine has it's place. Emergancies.  

[Sivirs]

I think doctors are an absolute must, but you have to know how to handle them. A lot of people treat their doctor's word like THE DECREE OF GOD HIMSELF, and then are surprised when doctors turn out to be people like anyone else. Sure, you don't second-guess absolutely every word that comes out of their mouth, but if they offer up a diagnosis, do all the independent research you can on it, ask detailed questions about any treatments they give you, and don't be afraid to say NO.

If you're having something that looks a lot like night terrors, you go to a doctor and you say, I think I'm having night terrors, is there a specialist you can send me to and get me tested? And you go from there, depending on the diagnosis.

I usually go the doctor route first and then try to supplement it with spells and sigils and whatever else I seem to need; even if there's nothing to be done spiritually, there may be a placebo effect, and I relax more knowing I've covered the problem from all possible angles - sure, it was probably Problem X, but just in case Supernatural Problem Y was anywhere in there, I've kicked it off too.

Everything has side effects. Nothing will work every time for every person who uses it. This applies as much to regular medicine as it does to more spiritual healing methods, and people looking for a cure-all from any source will be hugely disappointed, whether it's someone who runs to a doctor to get medicated for the tiniest problem or someone who screams psychic attack everytime they have a headache.

I also think there's this mindset in many people that, once you've become pagan, you don't get NORMAL PEOPLE illnesses anymore, you just get "psychic attacks" from mysterious far reaches of the universe. You most absolutely CANNOT come down with a mental illness, no matter how common or how harmless, and you definitely can't condescend to see a doctor, because those are for MUNDANES [insert disgust here]. It's a very dangerous attitude, and it disturbs me.

I think alternative treatments can and often DO work, though there are lots of fake swindlers out there (just like there are a lot of incompetent, greed-driven doctors, don't get me wrong), but so can science, and both should be used to their full advantage whenever possible. I wouldn't let a doctor give me a drug before I learned everything about it, and I wouldn't let some crazy herbalist hand me an herbal potion without giving me a list of ingredients either.

Basically, I think you should take help wherever you can get it, but you shouldn't just take anyone's word for it, whether they're your doctor or your aunt fran's neighbor who has homemade juice that'll cure warts.  

[I be me]

Now I am anti doctor. They nearly killed me once.

What you call night terrors are in my mind likely to be caused spiritually. You become a lot more aware of what is spiritually around you right before you go to sleep, or at least I am, so there could be something seriously wrong but you can't detect it untill you are in that area between awake and a dream.  

[Triste-chan]

I be me

Now I am anti doctor. They nearly killed me once.

What you call night terrors are in my mind likely to be caused spiritually. You become a lot more aware of what is spiritually around you right before you go to sleep, or at least I am, so there could be something seriously wrong but you can't detect it untill you are in that area between awake and a dream.

Yes, but your own personal experience with doctors doesn't change the fact that they do help many people, and do, in all likeliness, know what they're doing moreso than you.  

[Kuroiban]

I be me

Now I am anti doctor. They nearly killed me once.

What you call night terrors are in my mind likely to be caused spiritually. You become a lot more aware of what is spiritually around you right before you go to sleep, or at least I am, so there could be something seriously wrong but you can't detect it untill you are in that area between awake and a dream.

Some doctors are morons. Also, some black people commit crimes. If you distrusted everyone of African descent for that reason, you'd be labeled a racist and a fool. So to, can you be considered foolish for judging all doctors by the actions of a few.

Preforming an ritual to put uneasy spirits to ease do nothing for brain tumors or psycological trama. I'm not saying there COULDN'T be a spirtual reason: I'm open to that. I do, however, find it irresponeable to assume it is nothing else when it COULD be something major.  

[Doctrix]

I also have a personal distaste for Modern Western Medicine, so I would personally not undertake a doctor's course of treatment WITHOUT a magical supplement. However, replacing it would be a moot point in most cases due to the mechanism of the magical system that I have most frequently used over the years. In this magical system, the magic operates through the mundane. Thus, you can't just do a spell for a job and then expect one to fall in your lap without applying for one. Likewise, I believe that magic can operate through the medical treatment in order to produce the best, or even miraculously better than expected, results. The only time I would replace a medical treatment with a magical one is if it had already failed, or if the issue being treated was too minor to require medical care. Then the mechanism would default to natural means, such as the immune system.  

[Sivirs]

Triste-chan

Yes, but your own personal experience with doctors doesn't change the fact that they do help many people, and do, in all likeliness, know what they're doing moreso than you.

Neither, I'd like to add, does it change the fact that night terrors are a documented and widely-studied sleep disorder experienced by a large number of people, easily scientifically observable and documentable with proper monitoring equipment.

Night terrors also don't happen as you're going to sleep or before you go to sleep, they happen during the deepest stage of sleep (stage 4), which doesn't happen until about an hour after you go to sleep. And while a single exact reason for night terrors hasn't yet been agreed upon, possible triggers for night terrors are pretty mundane - medications, stress, overeating before bed, other illnesses, etc. Other disorders that happen during the 4th stage of sleep are sleepwalking and bedwetting - are bedwetters being visited by spirits too? These disorders also often run in families - I guess lots of families are running around absolutely beset by monstrous hordes of evil spirits.

This doesn't mean there aren't any entities that can cause you to experience a sensation akin to what you might experience with night terrors, but there are spirits that can make you experience a lot of things you can experience just fine without their help. Some people who hear voices can go in to be checked for schizophrenia and come out perfectly clean - others can't. Some people who do shamanic work come out nauseous or thirsty - so do some people who get stomach flu. Assuming the least likely but most esoteric (and ego-boosting) option first is silly. Taking it into account as a possibility is one thing, but putting it first just because it's not the medical one is bordering on Mr. Dark territory.  

[CuAnnan]

I'm a fence-sitter on this.

When I get sick, in chronological order, I

• ring work to let them know
  
• Set an alarm for 9:30 so that I can ring the doctor and arrange to see him
  
• Go back to sleep and get three more hours sleep
  
• Wake up at alarm, call doctor and set up appointment for no earlier than 11:30
  
• Sit in front of the altar meditating for half an hour
  
• Dress comfortably
  
• Go to doctor
  
• Call in work to give update
  

I place no importance on any of the steps above any of the other, barring their practicallity (no point in trying to ring the doctor before waking up).

The doctor gets in at 10 but doesn't start seeing people for an hour and it takes me half an hour to get down there, bringing us to half ten but walking that far leaves you wreaked so by the time you get back you're too tired to do anything.

So if I want to get both done, I have to do the "majick3y" bit first or not at all. I'd rather be awake when seeing the doctor and meditation helps so it actually makes more sense to do the ritualistic part of my "get well" routine first.