Alexandrian Wicca

[quantum_leaper]

Ok i have a question.


I'm using this as a source

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_Wicca

It says that sanders was only initated up to the 1st degree.

As far as i am aware arent you only supposed to be able to initate after the 2nd degree?

Does this mean (on a strictly technical level) that Alexandrian Wicca arent really wiccans because their founder wasnt by the rules of wicca able to initiate new memeber?

Now i am very much open to correction on this one and dont mean to cause offence but its just something that has been mulling over in my brain for the last while....

*edited to fix link  

[CuAnnan]

quantum_leaper

Ok i have a question.


I'm using this as a source

Wikipedia

It says that sanders was only initated up to the 1st degree.

As far as i am aware arent you only supposed to be able to initate after the 2nd degree?

Does this mean (on a strictly technical level) that Alexandrian Wicca arent really wiccans because their founder wasnt by the rules of wicca able to initiate new memeber?

Now i am very much open to correction on this one and dont mean to cause offence but its just something that has been mulling over in my brain for the last while....

In traditional Gardnerian Wicca, at the first degree, you can initiate to the first degree, afaik.  

[Pelta]

reagun ban

quantum_leaper

Ok i have a question.


I'm using this as a source

Wikipedia

It says that sanders was only initated up to the 1st degree.

As far as i am aware arent you only supposed to be able to initate after the 2nd degree?

Does this mean (on a strictly technical level) that Alexandrian Wicca arent really wiccans because their founder wasnt by the rules of wicca able to initiate new memeber?

Now i am very much open to correction on this one and dont mean to cause offence but its just something that has been mulling over in my brain for the last while....

In traditional Gardnerian Wicca, at the first degree, you can initiate to the first degree, afaik.

But then where did the Alexandrian second and third degrees come from?

Very curious indeed...  

[TeaDidikai]

Also of note that even within Wicca, lineages can and do evolve to include different information.

The other thing I heard at one point was that Alex went back and earned his 2nd and 3rd from another coven post: D. Valentine schism.  

[quantum_leaper]

Hmm.. When apparently did he go back to earn them?


If in tradition gardnerian wicca you can initate to 1st degree if you are 1st degree then that puts a better spin on it... Can anyone verify?  

[TeaDidikai]

quantum_leaper

Hmm.. When apparently did he go back to earn them?


If in tradition gardnerian wicca you can initate to 1st degree if you are 1st degree then that puts a better spin on it... Can anyone verify?

He went back directly after Valentine left.

Something political.

As for the Initiation up to 1st Degree, Reagun as a former Wiccan would know- however, that stance may differ from tradition to tradition.  

[Doctrix]

There is a lot of controversy about Alexandrians. There are those who believe Alex Sanders was never Initiated at all. Since all Wiccan Covens are autonomous, it is up to the Elders to decide whether to allow an Alexandrian into their Circle, if such a request were made. The Witchvox Alexandrian Trad article also implies that Alexandrians may Initiate at the second degree, but only up to their degree.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

There is a lot of controversy about Alexandrians. There are those who believe Alex Sanders was never Initiated at all. Since all Wiccan Covens are autonomous, it is up to the Elders to decide whether to allow an Alexandrian into their Circle, if such a request were made. The Witchvox Alexandrian Trad article also implies that Alexandrians may Initiate at the second degree, but only up to their degree.

I'll also note that 3rd Degree lineaged Wiccans from other trads have converted to Alexandrian, and thus some lineages may include 3rd Degree, even if said degree does not go through Sanders to Gardner within the 3rd Degree title.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

I'll also note that 3rd Degree lineaged Wiccans from other trads have converted to Alexandrian, and thus some lineages may include 3rd Degree, even if said degree does not go through Sanders to Gardner within the 3rd Degree title.

No... Mmm... How to explain this. Many Wiccans do hold degrees in several Traditions, but that does not mean that they pass on their lore and practice from every Tradition as it was taught to them to any subsequent Tradition they join.

For example, pretend that I received a Gardnerian Initiation from a lineaged Coven who passed on Gardnerian Wiccan lore and practice as it was passed on to them through each "generation." Let's pretend that I progressed to a Gardnerian 3rd degree. Now, let's pretend that, ten years down the road, I got sick of my Coven and decided to join a Kingstone Coven. Since Kingstones recognize Gardnerians as Wiccans (and let's pretend that they know my Gard Elders), they accept me into their Coven. Let's pretend that they even allow me in as a 3rd (though I don't know how likely that would be.) Now, each person I Initiate DOES NOT automatically have Gardnerian and Kingstone lineage. Since I would now be working with a Kingstone Coven, I would probably only give them a Kingstone Initiation and thus they would only have Kingstone lineage. I would pass on the Kingstone lore and practices as they were taught to me, but not the Gardnerian lore and practices as they were taught to me. If I then joined a LadyFluffBunny Tradition, then I would NOT automatically pass on Gardnerian and Kingstone Wicca to every new LadyFluff initiate. LadyFluff would NOT be considered "lineaged" just because I joined. Likewise, if it turned out that the Kingstone Coven that I joined was a fake, and did not have a true lineage, they do not magically have Gardnerian lineage since I joined them.

In conclusion, if Alex Sanders were never Initiated (and I'm not saying he was or wasn't), his line would not become lineaged just because a few lineaged Wiccans joined. Once they became Alexandrians, each time they passed on Alexandrian Wicca, they would pass on Alexandrian lore and practices as they were taught to them. I've probably just confused everyone more. Things get even more complicated when some Trads don't recognize others and require additional Initiations and training when there's a cross-over.  

[Neko_Bast]

I read in "A Witchs Bible" by the Farrars, that Sanders was never initiated. That Gardner refeused to initiate him. He some how go his hands on the Gardnerian Book of Shadowes and tried to pass it off as his grandmothers. He made a new Wiccan tradition with out ever being initiated. I think he was initiated later but I can't rember where I read that. In the book (stated above) they have the first through third degree rituals, supposedly direcly from Gardners book.  

[TeaDidikai]

Kudzu? How much of that is universal within Wicca and how much of that would be your personal actions though?

I realize that most of my information comes from watching known Wiccans in an occult shop- but some of the things they have said (and in some cases, haven't said rolleyes ), cause me to wonder if it isn't akin to the evolution Reiki saw once something like Emerald Dragon and Ichi Sakie crashed into each other like a pair of Mac Trucks.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

Kudzu? How much of that is universal within Wicca and how much of that would be your personal actions though?

Well, those weren't my own experiences. They were an example. What I believe is universal within Wicca is that one does not get [insert Trad here] lineage without a [insert Trad here] Initiation. What is very flexible is that each Coven is autonomous, so each individual Coven gets to decide whether they choose to recognize the Initiation of any other person.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

TeaDidikai

Kudzu? How much of that is universal within Wicca and how much of that would be your personal actions though?

Well, those weren't my own experiences. They were an example. What I believe is universal within Wicca is that one does not get [insert Trad here] lineage without a [insert Trad here] Initiation. What is very flexible is that each Coven is autonomous, so each individual Coven gets to decide whether they choose to recognize the Initiation of any other person.

So, in essence, without having an Alexandrian and Gardenarian initiation from one of these "crossing" lineages, we cannot tell if say- the Alexandrian 3rd Degree looks the same as the Gardenarian, yes?  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

So, in essence, without having an Alexandrian and Gardenarian initiation from one of these "crossing" lineages, we cannot tell if say- the Alexandrian 3rd Degree looks the same as the Gardenarian, yes?

That's one way of putting it, yes. I believe that, in order to have both an Alexandrian and a Gardnerian lineage, one would have to be Initiated into both. But I'm willing to be wrong about all this crazy stuff, because I don't yet run a Coven as an Elder, so I haven't actually had to make all these tough decisions about whether to let a [insert Trad here] Wiccan into my group without an Initiation into my Trad.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

TeaDidikai

So, in essence, without having an Alexandrian and Gardenarian initiation from one of these "crossing" lineages, we cannot tell if say- the Alexandrian 3rd Degree looks the same as the Gardenarian, yes?

That's one way of putting it, yes. I believe that, in order to have both an Alexandrian and a Gardnerian lineage, one would have to be Initiated into both. But I'm willing to be wrong about all this crazy stuff, because I don't yet run a Coven as an Elder, so I haven't actually had to make all these tough decisions about whether to let a [insert Trad here] Wiccan into my group without an Initiation into my Trad.

I just realized how unclear I was being.

My runaway thoughts came from the idea that the foundation of the religion are the Mysteries. Wicca allows for different covens to express the mysteries as they are revealed- which creates differences.

If LCX is completely bastardized beyond the identity of LCY's concept of Wicca, but is then turned into LCY's tradition, LCX no longer is LCX but LCY.