(reposted from the tabletop forum which is super unpopular) (edit - we are located just north of Everett WA, if anyone is in the Area give me a PM)
While the struggles of keeping a game balanced aren't specific to any type of game, right now I am running a 40k game, using the Fantasy Flights Games systems. Mostly out of 'Only War' and the second edition of 'Dark Heresy' for the rules, but using older books too. (it's more of a Rogue Trader type of game really)
The problem I am running into right now is that as a merc company money isn't really an issue, so they can buy whatever they want.
It's already a bit of a problem with heavy armor and feats (between 10-15 DR from armor and toughness) making weapons ether mostly ineffectual or else likely to kill a character outright. (further compounded by the medic's ability to heal 11 HP as a half action, if anything is going to be more of a deterrent than a sign that reads 'please don't steal' it has to deal at least 12 damage, but hopefully not over 15 or that might kill someone before they have a chance to realize that they should take combat seriously)
Anyway... the current issue is augmentics and buying upgrades to characters with wealth. I've tried to implement a policy that buying things (be they skills, talents, or traits) cost XP even if the in game cost is a few thrones. (for example, you can buy a hypno indoctrination tape to gain X skill, it's not that expensive... but you still need to spend XP to learn the skill. Buying the tape just gives a reasonable excuse for how you learned.)
I told the heavy gunner who had a mechanical arm that 'yes, you can have a stabilizer installed that lets you brace the weapon, it's called 'bulging biceps' and you have to buy the talent even if the tech priest installs it on the cheap'
But many of the augmentics do strange and wonderful things. that don't have skills or talents associated with them. Such as unnatural intelligence (which is one of the ways the medic got his healing so high) or sub dermal armor. (which apparently stacks with other armor)
Tech Priest already got the unnatural intelligence from character creation and given my policy of charging XP for things I'm not sure that I should have let that slide, but he's wanting to install other things on himself now since money isn't a concern. What should I do to keep the game fair to everyone? (and also to reign in power creep)
Finally, armor. While it's great for keeping players alive, it's had the unfortunate side effect of 1 making classes relatively samey (the storm trooper and the psyker both act as bullet shields) and the unfortunate side effect of giving them the ability to ignore most weapon so they only pay attention when melta guns and sniper rifles come out. Ether of which might kill them. (as I mentioned in the top)
Is there anything to encourage dressing more class specific? So that heavy armored people attempt to draw agro from lightly armored ratling (as opposed to the stormtrooper carapace armored ratling with 6, +1 from Best quality, +2 from armor monger, +2 sub dermal armor, + TB of 6, +3 against energy, +whatever else pops up and I can't remember what other upgrades are super easy to do to armor)
I have been considering implementing a more DnD style system, where they have to buy training in each of the armors... however I can't imagine that will take more than 1500 XP to buy light, medium, heavy, and exotic. That's 3 game sessions, sure, but not a big deal and not going to keep them from doing it like like it ain't no thing.
Advice?
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:50 pm
The best thing I've done for balance since Rogue Trader on the 'we don't use actual money anymore' is that the more they buy, the more likely to draw 'attention'. This could be pirates, muggers, people looking to blackmail em, ect. Good and bad attention for spending 'money' willy nilly. Only War is normally a lot lower on the 'money' scale until later, which good luck surviving. And can draw the attention of other units or worse, the Commissar and Munitorium. After all, the Munitorum is notorious for taking s**t from the troops for use elsewhere and Commissars sniffing about can find horrible heresy in places, especially if they got stuff they were never issued and kept the items. Those few extra grenades they stashed, that bottle of amasec, ect. Not saying all do, so it's up to you.
For DH2e, similar thing, cause Inquisition. Other option is use DH1e's 'have a paycheck' system and see how it works out. Though on that last, expect lots of stealing from the players, or attempted stealing.
The best thing I've done for balance since Rogue Trader on the 'we don't use actual money anymore' is that the more they buy, the more likely to draw 'attention'. This could be pirates, muggers, people looking to blackmail em, ect. Good and bad attention for spending 'money' willy nilly. Only War is normally a lot lower on the 'money' scale until later, which good luck surviving. And can draw the attention of other units or worse, the Commissar and Munitorium. After all, the Munitorum is notorious for taking s**t from the troops for use elsewhere and Commissars sniffing about can find horrible heresy in places, especially if they got stuff they were never issued and kept the items. Those few extra grenades they stashed, that bottle of amasec, ect. Not saying all do, so it's up to you.
For DH2e, similar thing, cause Inquisition. Other option is use DH1e's 'have a paycheck' system and see how it works out. Though on that last, expect lots of stealing from the players, or attempted stealing.
Hmm... I suppose. attracting pirates is ... something. But they are their own authority for the most part, like rogue traders. But the a lot of the stuff that is kinda balance breaking isn't exactly expensive, nor is sub dermal armor actually flashy and advertising your wealth.
The armor upgrade that gives +3 is 'scarce' for example. When I realized that I had to figure that most everyone was wearing it. (hmm, I'm not seeing the armor upgrades in 'only war' maybe it was in Black Crusades or Rogue Trader?)
I also have trouble with convincing them that not all situations require them walking around in full plate armor with their weapons out and ready to shoot anyone who looks at them funny. After all... doing that CAUSES people to look at them funny, then assume they are hostile, then shoot at them... so from their perspective, any social encounter could turn violent so why shouldn't they be geared up for a fight? (ignoring that the only reason the fight started was cause they were geared up for it.)
In short, I don't think the 'drawing attention' has had the desired effect. It's had the effect of making them spend more on being armored at all times.
But again, the current problem is... should I allow them to say 'I can afford to pay money for that, I am going to pay money for it instead of paying XP for the talent'
Or should I make an XP cost for things that enhance their characters? Or some other way to encourage them to not be robocop and/or stormtroopers (Though I guess the stormtrooper actually makes sense for that, but even the psyker wants to cosplay like she's waiting for a jedi to come chop her limbs off)
After all, nobody wants to be Han Solo, he gets shot and dies in the first half hour. (sarcasm)
Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:48 pm
It does sound like you've given too many shinies without them doing much work for it or really earning it. Players should earn their skills and advancements.
From what I remember when we played rogue trader we were rich, but we never used actual money, we made a roll or two using our profit factor (I think) to determine whether or not we could acquire something.
I never got a chance to Play Rogue Trader. We created our characters and then the GM's brother threw a tantrum(and I mean he threw an actual temper tantrum) about the character I had made and pretty much ruined everyone's appetite for the game.
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:41 am
Sean King
I never got a chance to Play Rogue Trader. We created our characters and then the GM's brother threw a tantrum(and I mean he threw an actual temper tantrum) about the character I had made and pretty much ruined everyone's appetite for the game.
Shame really, as out of all the systems, we had the most fun with Rogue Trader. It may be a little rough around the edges, but it's by far the best sandbox RPG in the bunch.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:50 am
Pirate Santa
While the struggles of keeping a game balanced aren't specific to any type of game, right now I am running a 40k game, using the Fantasy Flights Games systems. Mostly out of 'Only War' and the second edition of 'Dark Heresy' for the rules, but using older books too. (it's more of a Rogue Trader type of game really)
I'm curious to know, what exactly are you mixing between the two systems and the other books? Because while there is some cross-compatibility, it is not advised.
During our Rogue Trader sessions we had one player who had a character using the Adept career path from Dark Heresy. While he was nowhere near as powerful in a fight as us, he does however have access to cheaper skills, talents and characteristic upgrades, which quickly resulted in him getting a whopping sixteen(!) degrees of success on all matters involving Int and the like.
Pirate Santa
It's already a bit of a problem with heavy armor and feats (between 10-15 DR from armor and toughness) making weapons ether mostly ineffectual or else likely to kill a character outright. (further compounded by the medic's ability to heal 11 HP as a half action, if anything is going to be more of a deterrent than a sign that reads 'please don't steal' it has to deal at least 12 damage, but hopefully not over 15 or that might kill someone before they have a chance to realize that they should take combat seriously)
Anyway... the current issue is augmentics and buying upgrades to characters with wealth. I've tried to implement a policy that buying things (be they skills, talents, or traits) cost XP even if the in game cost is a few thrones. (for example, you can buy a hypno indoctrination tape to gain X skill, it's not that expensive... but you still need to spend XP to learn the skill. Buying the tape just gives a reasonable excuse for how you learned.)
Skills, talents and characteristic upgrades always cost XP, where the XP cost is calculated via the aptitude system. Please tell me you're using it.
Pirate Santa
Is there anything to encourage dressing more class specific? So that heavy armored people attempt to draw agro from lightly armored ratling (as opposed to the stormtrooper carapace armored ratling with 6, +1 from Best quality, +2 from armor monger, +2 sub dermal armor, + TB of 6, +3 against energy, +whatever else pops up and I can't remember what other upgrades are super easy to do to armor)
Advice?
s**t, you've really been handing out stuff almost willy-nilly, you've created, or allowed the creation of monsters.
Also.. How much XP do they earn per session? What is it that they do each session?
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:55 am
Raganui Minamoto
The best thing I've done for balance since Rogue Trader on the 'we don't use actual money anymore' is that the more they buy, the more likely to draw 'attention'. This could be pirates, muggers, people looking to blackmail em, ect. Good and bad attention for spending 'money' willy nilly. Only War is normally a lot lower on the 'money' scale until later, which good luck surviving. And can draw the attention of other units or worse, the Commissar and Munitorium. After all, the Munitorum is notorious for taking s**t from the troops for use elsewhere and Commissars sniffing about can find horrible heresy in places, especially if they got stuff they were never issued and kept the items. Those few extra grenades they stashed, that bottle of amasec, ect. Not saying all do, so it's up to you.
The Rogue Trader system was simple and to the point, using the profit factor and availability meant that even though you had all the money in the galaxy, you still couldn't get everything willy-nilly. And yes, there are tools for helping the GM reign in players who either spend too much or are a bit too flashy with their wealth. Pirates, investments gone awry or the Administratum tax collectors..
The Only War logistics system is an interesting one indeed. It can also totally screw up or improve the survival rate of the mission with a random roll and the properly applied warzone modifiers. rofl
Raganui Minamoto
For DH2e, similar thing, cause Inquisition. Other option is use DH1e's 'have a paycheck' system and see how it works out. Though on that last, expect lots of stealing from the players, or attempted stealing.
The money system from the first game is horribly broken, as some classes make insane amounts of money due to their career choice, while others have to make do. I'm glad they got rid of the system for DH2, instead going for a more abstract system like with Rogue Trader. It also yes, makes more sense that the Inquisition would pay for any new or lost equipment, instead of punishing the players for it by making them pay.
While the struggles of keeping a game balanced aren't specific to any type of game, right now I am running a 40k game, using the Fantasy Flights Games systems. Mostly out of 'Only War' and the second edition of 'Dark Heresy' for the rules, but using older books too. (it's more of a Rogue Trader type of game really)
I'm curious to know, what exactly are you mixing between the two systems and the other books? Because while there is some cross-compatibility, it is not advised.
During our Rogue Trader sessions we had one player who had a character using the Adept career path from Dark Heresy. While he was nowhere near as powerful in a fight as us, he does however have access to cheaper skills, talents and characteristic upgrades, which quickly resulted in him getting a whopping sixteen(!) degrees of success on all matters involving Int and the like.
Pirate Santa
It's already a bit of a problem with heavy armor and feats (between 10-15 DR from armor and toughness) making weapons ether mostly ineffectual or else likely to kill a character outright. (further compounded by the medic's ability to heal 11 HP as a half action, if anything is going to be more of a deterrent than a sign that reads 'please don't steal' it has to deal at least 12 damage, but hopefully not over 15 or that might kill someone before they have a chance to realize that they should take combat seriously)
Anyway... the current issue is augmentics and buying upgrades to characters with wealth. I've tried to implement a policy that buying things (be they skills, talents, or traits) cost XP even if the in game cost is a few thrones. (for example, you can buy a hypno indoctrination tape to gain X skill, it's not that expensive... but you still need to spend XP to learn the skill. Buying the tape just gives a reasonable excuse for how you learned.)
Skills, talents and characteristic upgrades always cost XP, where the XP cost is calculated via the aptitude system. Please tell me you're using it.
Pirate Santa
Is there anything to encourage dressing more class specific? So that heavy armored people attempt to draw agro from lightly armored ratling (as opposed to the stormtrooper carapace armored ratling with 6, +1 from Best quality, +2 from armor monger, +2 sub dermal armor, + TB of 6, +3 against energy, +whatever else pops up and I can't remember what other upgrades are super easy to do to armor)
Advice?
s**t, you've really been handing out stuff almost willy-nilly, you've created, or allowed the creation of monsters.
Also.. How much XP do they earn per session? What is it that they do each session?
yes, they have aptitudes. but the 'I paid him 500 thrones for it' isn't really an aptitude.
Yeah, they can buy most anything that's scarce availability or lower without much worry. They are running their own mercenary company after all, and they just bought a tank.
Last session they earned 300xp, bringint their current XP total to almost 20000, depending on the person. (the previous session they got 1000 XP for bravely completing the first phase of a 3 phase battle with hundreds of combatants.) ... 'What did they do?'
They were laying siege to a temple that had been desecrated and invaded by Chaos Cultists. 4 players today, with a Sorceress of Slanesh and an inquisitor Stormtrooper were AWOL.
They started off by summoning their company of mercs to join the battle (since the PDF the players had joined with got badly mauled last time) and had an arrival time of 5 hours.
The Dark Eldar (started as an NPC but then was given to a new player, who's currently introducing his new character now that he has a handle on the game) infiltrated a chaos cult, listened to a bit of their plan. He then snuck out and got sniper rifled repeatedly while climbing down the front (because the coalition forces don't consider Dark Eldar to be allies, and took a lot of convincing otherwise). He spent a fate to survive that. (dark eldar from the rogue trader book, soul reaver)
The Demegogue (or whatever the talky class from Black Crusade was), the Social Scout we'll call him, went scouting for another entrance, and almost snuck up on a guard post before being spotted by the guards at the service entrance. He used his voice mimicry to mimic their voices (that he overheard while sneaking up) to confuse them momentarily and then run away. 5 of them shot him point blank range with hotshot las guns (1d10+4, pen 7), for 15 hits... most of them doing absolutely nothing, a few of them doing a few points of damage. And one of them critically hitting him for 22 damage (before armor and toughness reduction) and bringing him down to 9 critical damage and taking his leg off.
They noticed he was still alive, so they shot off his rebreather/voice amp/com link/vision enhancement mask and took him captive.
The Tek Priest fixed up casualties from the first part of the assault. He has a medicae skill of 140+ because he started in a Black Crusade campaign (back when nobody knew what they wanted to do and said 'space nazis suck! We're rebels' but before they realized 'oh, the anti-nazi party is backed by literal hell demons and loves to eat babies') so he started with 35 int +2d10, +5 int for the heretek class, +? for background? I'm not even sure. +20 from buying the characteristic upgrades. = 80 int, 2 unatural int... and somehow another 10 to give him a healing power of 11 for basic first aid. He did that back when they were fairly new characters, possibly 9000 xp?
So he healed people, used logic to convince the Sergeant that not killing the PC Dark Eldar was pragmatic because he was their spy. Noticed that a demon was casually sitting at the front entrance to guard it. So he went up to it and had a polite conversation (after succeeding at a fear test, fear -20, fear -40, and finally, rolling a 2, a fear -60 test. Amazing.) with the demon who introduced himself as 's-s-s-s-spiders' a manifestation of humanity's fear of spiders. After learning that he was just planning to sit here til told otherwise (and yeah, a -60 fear test to get within 10 meters of him is going to spoil most infantry charges, and he already proved to be unconcerned by sniper rifle fire) so Tek Priest emptied 2 cans of hand flamer onto him (I don't remember him buying one, but they aren't THAT expensive and I've forgotten things before) with no effect more than spitting in his face. So Tek Priest ran away before he needed to make more fear checks.
Then he stormed the side entrance, using a hawks tallon (spoils of war from an Eldar battle) to snipe at the guards, who promptly ran inside and rigged the side wing of the temple to explode.
At this point Tek Priest met up with Ratling Sniper, who just joined the PCs (on account of his player getting his Cryomancer by accidentally summoning a demon that killed him with a few unlucky rolls on both sides last game)
So they disarmed outside bombs on the door (for no apparent reason than he wanted a few more explosives? I'm not really sure) and then charged in, the ratling sniper killed the only guard who was willing to give his life to slow people down while the place exploded, and rescued the Social Scout, dragging him and his 3 chainswords, 3 sniper rifles, power claw, and heavy stubber, and I'm not sure what else to safety. (yeah, I know. That's a LOT of weapons to be carrying around. I shake my head at it too. But what am I supposed to say? 'that's stupid' is met with 'says you! I like it!')
Then he finished healing people, putting the dark eldar back together (back up to 11 HP from first aid), fixing the tank that got immobilized last session, is planning on putting a common augmentic leg on Social Scout (we were arguing about quality, and I said that was all their company had with them for emergency supplies, but he wants to make him best quality leg (he even said he would sacrifice one of the chainswords to make it so) because that would give... what was it? Some sort of bonus, like the sprint talent or more armor because of the machine trait, or something like that.)
Which is really the crux of the problem, he's good enough at both med and tech that he argues he can make 'best quality' stuff on the cheap, and doing so upgrades characteristics in ways that normally people would have to spend thousands of XP to gain by leveling up. Or in some ways that simply aren't available by XP gain, such as the cranial implant, sub dermal armor, and things of that type. In addition to wearing stormtrooper armor (that's upgraded of course) if I let him give this for free to his bud, I know that next game session it's going to be a precedent, 'you let him get this stuff for free last game. I want this.' and soon everyone's robocop. (yes, I am aware that haywire grenades would screw up their day, but I don't want to TPK them with a grenade, that's cheap and lazy, and they probably wouldn't want to risk damaging the precious hawks tallon anyhow.)
The Dark Eldar woke up, told him about the defenses he saw them set up on the inside of the place.
They argued with the Sergeant about buying the tank in exchange for a generous donation to the PDF for furthering the defense of the planet. (he then made a slight of hand to steal most of it back, which technically hasn't happened yet, but he laid out his plan to swap the sack of coins, relics, IOUs from the eclesiarchy, and other stuff with a sack of rocks. It was a sound plan, and by the time the guy notices they will be long gone. So assuming nobody dies and the tank lives, its going to happen, we just didn't want to forget.)
What I had hoped would happen?
The healing and repair stuff would happen. someone would say 'we'll have a dark eldar coming toward us soon, DO NOT SHOOT HIM!' and he wouldn't have needed to make multiple dodge rolls while hanging on the side of a building.
They would patiently wait for the reinforcements.
They would charge the front, possibly with some dirty tricks, like filling an armored car with explosives and driving it in first, or using Social Scout's insane charm to get a few of them to come out and engage him in an insult duel or something. Get a priest to bless some flamer ammunition to frighten off s-s-s-s-spiders. Things like that.
They would mash their way through waves of poorly equipped cannon fodder cultists while trying not to draw too much agro from the heavy weapons like a pair of las cannons and 3 sets of autocannons. They would grenade or otherwise disable the heavy weapon teams, fight a few of the notable NPCs (an ogryn with it's STR and AGI flipped so it was almost a dark eldar in it's nimbleness, a rattling that is more like an ogryn swordmaster, a squad of dark eldar jetboards (whatever they are called), and a psudo sorcerer, who redirects psychic attacks, and generates psychic phenomena to attack with.)
Then they would consolidate their position on piles of bodies while the cultists retreat to the temple's podium and awaited a third assault. (and a good place to leave off for the week)
How much of that did they accomplish? They crippled themselves and didn't attack.
I guess there is a reason why they want to be robo cop.
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:22 am
Vikki Stardust
It does sound like you've given too many shinies without them doing much work for it or really earning it. Players should earn their skills and advancements.
From what I remember when we played rogue trader we were rich, but we never used actual money, we made a roll or two using our profit factor (I think) to determine whether or not we could acquire something.
Yeah, it's something like that. But as a rogue trader, what is outside your reach? certainly not the cheap stuff like armor, weapons, and gear for a few people. The expensive gear, like plasma guns might take a while to find, but even that's not out of reach.
The players say I haven't given them enough, that I am keeping them poor on purpose. And with such stuff as cheap as it is, can you blame me? What will they do when each of them has their own dreadnaught?
Being able to build anything of scarce rarity or bellow himself means that they have access to melta guns, armor upgrades, and all sorts of crazy stuff. What am i supposed to say to that? I haven't really let them have more than a few special rare and above items, but they keep pressuring me. 'Come on, when can we get our best quality power swords?'
They even considered selling their ship (a stolen Eldar Harlequin ship, they got it after a 3 way battle between Eldar, Dark Eldar/Chaos Cultists, and themselves) for the insane quantities of profit that would afford. What would I tell them they can't afford if they gave that to an inquisitor? A moon? A planet?
I never got a chance to Play Rogue Trader. We created our characters and then the GM's brother threw a tantrum(and I mean he threw an actual temper tantrum) about the character I had made and pretty much ruined everyone's appetite for the game.
I kinda did the same thing as your GM. Sorry... I sympathize.
One of the players wanted to make a Tek Priest who specialized in duel wielding heavy weapons, using a pair of manipulator mechadendrites to hold and brace the weapons (he said he would buy the 'bulging biceps' talent twice if I made him) while using his hands to fire them, and buying the appropriate gunslinger talents that let a person duel wield and shoot both guns as a single action.
I mean, what the heck? That's like a Tau battlesuit, if the imperial guard's enginseer (admitedly a very talented one) could do that, why wouldn't every army have a heavy weapon artillery tek priest? He tried to comprimise, saying that he would be imobile any turn he shot, ... sooo... more like the Tau Broadside battlesuit. And even suggesting having a lower rear armor (cause yes, he wanted the heavy weapon shield upgrade on them too, so he would also be dual wielding riot shields.) and at that point it just sounded like he was a dreadnaught, with a missile launcher in one arm and an assault cannon in the other. (granted one that wouldn't be very good at close combat. but a poor man's dreadnaught is still more than I was willing to say that any of the characters were. Especially since it completely invalidated the usefulness of the 'heavy gunner' class. To the point where when the guy who was making a heavy gunner heard of his plan he just stopped and made another psyker for the team instead.
He was willing to compromise a LOT, and honestly, if the rules are read with a certain... flexibility (which I have demonstrated in the past, I take the rules more as guidelines) it is doable with the right talents and gear. (pistol grips specifically)
But in the end, I wasn't willing to accept that it was possible for anyone outside of a forge world magos. After all, I've told them before 'Anything you can do, expect that there are others who can do it too' and I did NOT want to be adding a squad of duel wielding heavy weapon hereteks to the next battle.
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:42 am
BrookM
Sean King
I never got a chance to Play Rogue Trader. We created our characters and then the GM's brother threw a tantrum(and I mean he threw an actual temper tantrum) about the character I had made and pretty much ruined everyone's appetite for the game.
Shame really, as out of all the systems, we had the most fun with Rogue Trader. It may be a little rough around the edges, but it's by far the best sandbox RPG in the bunch.
I know what you mean. But GMing for it is a devil when your players realize that they can buy armies to fight for them and the tech priest only half jokingly says 'I REPLACE MY LEGS WITH STARSHIPS!'
I never got a chance to Play Rogue Trader. We created our characters and then the GM's brother threw a tantrum(and I mean he threw an actual temper tantrum) about the character I had made and pretty much ruined everyone's appetite for the game.
Oh, I re read this... I thought the GM threw a tantrum and didn't allow your character.
What was your character, may I ask?
Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:08 am
From what I gather here I think I can see the problems.
1. Your players are out of control and have reached the point where I would personally just pull the plug and be done with it because they come across as spoiled munchkins who are out there to break the system in whichever way they can without an iota of thought for any set story or structure.
Wanting to do a cool character build is one thing, but the examples given very much break the boundaries and stray into idiotic power playing that breaks the game on many levels.
2. The GM has the ultimate fiat on what can and cannot be done. It may sound harsh, but letting the players run amok like a bunch of assholes who pull s**t off without consequence does not make for a great campaign. Give them a finger and they'll rip your entire arm off the next time.
Yes, you can buy armies, but no, it isn't easy. You can't just walk up to someone and ask if they've got an army for sale. Same with certain quality items. You roll for it, factor in the scarcity, the profit factor of the player group and work from there. Players should NEVER be able to automatically purchase items unless they are very, very mundane or common place.
When we played Rogue Trader each player was allowed to make one purchase roll for special items, which didn't always pan out. Some players would finally be able to get that shiny new pistol, while the others were s**t out of luck and had to try at a different planet.
3. Your players don't get 40k and they are also not suited for the 40KRPG system, or at least not the way they want to play it.
You can't just build tech "cheaply" and get away with it, that's heresy. You can't just modify a body and say that's that.
Also, when mixing books, do characters stick to their own system for skills and talents, or do you let them shop around in other books..? Like allowing an Only War character to buy talents from a Black Crusade or Dark Heresy 2.0 book?
From what I gather here I think I can see the problems.
1. Your players are out of control and have reached the point where I would personally just pull the plug and be done with it because they come across as spoiled munchkins who are out there to break the system in whichever way they can without an iota of thought for any set story or structure.
Wanting to do a cool character build is one thing, but the examples given very much break the boundaries and stray into idiotic power playing that breaks the game on many levels.
2. The GM has the ultimate fiat on what can and cannot be done. It may sound harsh, but letting the players run amok like a bunch of assholes who pull s**t off without consequence does not make for a great campaign. Give them a finger and they'll rip your entire arm off the next time.
Yes, you can buy armies, but no, it isn't easy. You can't just walk up to someone and ask if they've got an army for sale. Same with certain quality items. You roll for it, factor in the scarcity, the profit factor of the player group and work from there. Players should NEVER be able to automatically purchase items unless they are very, very mundane or common place.
When we played Rogue Trader each player was allowed to make one purchase roll for special items, which didn't always pan out. Some players would finally be able to get that shiny new pistol, while the others were s**t out of luck and had to try at a different planet.
3. Your players don't get 40k and they are also not suited for the 40KRPG system, or at least not the way they want to play it.
You can't just build tech "cheaply" and get away with it, that's heresy. You can't just modify a body and say that's that.
Also, when mixing books, do characters stick to their own system for skills and talents, or do you let them shop around in other books..? Like allowing an Only War character to buy talents from a Black Crusade or Dark Heresy 2.0 book?
1) I feel obligated to remind that there are 2 sides to every story, and while I haven't told any lies, I am a bit grumpy
from a week long argument about after the Cryomancer died (who I had just a session ago made special ice manipulation powers for when he bought all of the voidfrost powers from Navi-primer.) and then wanted to make a tek priest that was a walking artillery piece (comparable to a tau battle suit or dreadnaught)
So I might not be the best representative of 'their side of the story', because, as I said, he was willing to make a lot of compromises and I just 'shot it down'.
2) I agree, I've always gone by the old adage, 'GM's Word Is Law'. But a GMs job is also to make sure everyone has a good time and enables them to do cool stuff... not all the time, but with enough regularity that it is enjoyable. And sometimes they find I am too harsh and am just 'shooting their ideas down' or 'trying to get everyone killed'.
Which isn't the case, I WANT them to live, it's just that...
...if they were to get mugged in the marketplace, muggers woldn't come out with knives... it would be stupid to attack someone in full armor and with their gear with knives, even desperate muggers know that knives are incapable of causing damage. So they get mugged by muggers with high damage (but low rarity) guns (maybe a melta gun?) and stuff (which they promptly loot after the fight, adding to their gear in the instance when they don't already have something), which does a lot more damage, and usually results in the same danger level... but occasionally can kill someone outright.
It is kinda out of control, but ... I was the one who let them put their high starting rolls into whatever characteristic they want, let them buy the max characteristic advancements (if they had the XP) and let them buy the skills ... and talents out of the book. Maybe I should have kept better track of which books (after all, it started as Black Crusade, only moving to only war for the rules updates and slowly migrated like that.)
But if the talent lets him make any weapon or armor for scarce or lower, he's going to make meltaguns for everyone. Then he's going to put pistol grips on them. Then he's going to put red dot sights, and whatever else. And because most of the combat til now had been in claustrophobic environments, it means they kill the dark eldar Archon on the first turn of combat.
3) Most of them know a little of the setting at least. But they don't care about what is Heresy, they don't want to be 'in the imperium'. Even the Tek Priest kinda grumbles when I told him 'you can study the Eldar Tech, but you will never understand it. It is beyond human understanding.'
They don't really care about what is Heresy, they started out as Chaos minions before saying 'screw this noise, I wanna save that planet' and are now more like pirates who get treated like scum wherever they go, but also there's a war (or 5) on and if they could help out that sure would be appreciated because not everyone is zealous rather than pragmatic.
So what if going down to your workshop and putting a +3 on all everyone's armor is heresy? It requires silica dust (sand) a few somewhat specialized tools (tek preist) and a modicum of skill (Tek Priest while sleeping), so he darn well did that. And after seeing how easy it was to make, I actually gave every NPC who isn't flat broke the same upgrade, so ... it kinda balanced? They got +3 armor, and so did everyone else.
3.5) Characters generally stick to their own book, and by now that's mostly Only War, with a few minor exceptions because the Sorceress and Tek Priest started in Black Crusade (and the Dark Eldar started as an NPC from Rogue Trader).
But I have been using rules mostly from Only War because it was (at the time) the latest edition of the rules. And now a little more from Dark Heresy 2. (I was delighted to see that some of the heavier armor limits Agility in those rules, so a few of them have a few points knocked off their dodge chances if they upgrade their armor from flak to carapace.)
4) I have been considering retiring their characters to commanding officer position so they would start at level 1 characters in their merc company. It hasn't happened yet, but I am trying to finish up this story arc.
Though that means I would scale down all the enemies too... the ork boy would go from having a +30 in all stats, 4000 XP in talents, and another +5 in unnatural toughness, to being... well... from the book.
You know, like it is in old video games... you level up and you're still fighting skeleton minions, but these ones are red and could have made jello of the last dungeon's boss monster. Also that NPC you just had a boss fight with, he had 10,000 XP and could deal half a member's damage? You recruit him and he's suddenly a p***y. (I am thinking of Magos from Chrono Trigger)
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