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Ring Around The Rosies...and other morbidity. Goto Page: 1 2 3 [>] [»|]

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ceilisidhe

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:29 pm
In my fever - induced delirium I hummed the old nursery rhyme while contemplating the meaning behind the ditty and others like it. I'll share;


Ring around the rosies
sores from the bubonic plague were open sores with red swelling surrounding
A pocket full of posies
posies had a strong aroma and so were placed in the pockets of the bodies to help mask the stench before being placed on the street for pick-up by "burners"
Ashes, ashes
the bodies were incinerated in huge piles in the town square
We all fall down
no matter the precautions tens of thousands died. On a side note it was the church's decree that cats were demonic (hence superstitions about black cats) which caused a shortage of them (they were often captured and killed). Without cats to control the rat population.....you see the point.


London Bridges, amusingly enough, is about the French Revolution.

Feel free to post other rhymes with morbid or hidden undertones. (one about falling from branches comes to mind)  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:01 pm
This site has some good ones in it^^
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3740400.stm  

north_of_nita

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ceilisidhe

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:57 pm
3nodding

I've seen the site a few times - rather engrossing, really. I've always been fascinated by the subject myself. *smiles to self* I've even a couple Mr. Roberts hasn't listed yet! *holds the secrees like Senshi Venus with a starseed and runs with it*  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:54 pm
Well, we've always got "Puff the Magic Dragon", but I don't know if that counts...  

ringwraith10


BlairyFairy

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:06 pm
Ah, so the black plauge, that would be my favorite thing I've ever learned about. I don't know why but I loved it when I learned about it in the 7th grade.  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:32 pm
I did a reasearch paper on the black death ( the plague) and ive nown about ring around the rosies and london bridge and even jack and jill since like 6th grade...  

Frozen_Popcicle


Sulhir

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:28 pm
ceilisidhe
Ring around the rosies
sores from the bubonic plague were open sores with red swelling surrounding
A pocket full of posies
posies had a strong aroma and so were placed in the pockets of the bodies to help mask the stench before being placed on the street for pick-up by "burners"
Ashes, ashes
the bodies were incinerated in huge piles in the town square
We all fall down
no matter the precautions tens of thousands died. On a side note it was the church's decree that cats were demonic (hence superstitions about black cats) which caused a shortage of them (they were often captured and killed). Without cats to control the rat population.....you see the point.
I'm afraid that this one isn't true. I haven't researched the other ones, but I know that the ring around the rosies is wrong. I will go pull that up and post it in a bit.  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:35 pm
Ring Around The Rosie - Urban Legends
It's a rather long article, but it states -
Urban Legends
["Ring Around the Rosie" is sometimes said to have originated with a later outbreak of the plague which occurred in London in 1665, to which all of the following reasoning applies as well.]

* Although folklorists have been collecting and setting down in print bits of oral tradition such as nursery rhymes and fairy tales for hundreds of years, the earliest print appearance of "Ring Around the Rosie" did not occur until the publication of Kate Greenaway's Mother Goose or The Old Nursery Rhymes in 1881. For the "plague" explanation of "Ring Around the Rosie" to be true, we have to believe that children were reciting this nursery rhyme continuously for over five centuries, yet not one person in that five hundred year span found it popular enough to merit writing it down. (How anyone could credibly assert that a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually "began about 1347" is a mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then "Ring Around the Rosie" antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have examples of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms.)

* "Ring Around the Rosie" has many different variant forms which omit some of the "plague" references or clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with death or disease. For example, versions published by William Wells Newell in 1883:

Ring a ring a rosie,
A bottle full of posie,
All the girls in our town,
Ring for little Josie.

Round the ring of roses,
Pots full of posies,
The one stoops the last
Shall tell whom she loves the best.

Or this version from Charlotte Sophia Burne's 1883 Shropshire Folk-Lore:

Ring-a-ring o' roses,
A pocket full of posies,
One for Jack, and one for Jim,
And one for little Moses.
A-tischa! A-tischa! A-tischa!

Or this version collected by Alice Gomme and published in the Dictionary of British Folk-Lore in 1898:

Ring, a ring o' roses,
A pocket full o' posies,
Up-stairs and down-stairs,
In my lady's chamber --
Husher! Husher! Cuckoo!

Quite a fervent imagination is required to maintain that any of these variations has anything to do with a plague, and since they were all collected within a few years of each other, how could anyone determine that the "plague" version of "Ring Around the Rosie" was the original, and the other versions later corruptions of it? (And why is it that this rhyme supposedly remained intact for five centuries, then suddenly started sprouting all sorts of variations only in the late nineteenth century?)

* The explanations of the rhyme's "true" meaning are inconsistent, and they seem to be contrived to match whichever version of "Ring Around the Rosie" the teller is familar with. For example, the purpose of the "pocket full of posies" is said to by any one of the following:

o Something carried to ward off the disease.
o A way of masking the "stench of death."
o An item the dead were commonly buried with.
o Flowers to place "on a grave or funeral pyre."
o A representation of the "pus or infection under the skin in the sores" of plague victims.

Likewise, multiple meanings are claimed for the repetition of "ashes" at the beginning of the last line:

o A representation of the sneezing sounds of plague victims.
o A reference to the practice of burning the bodies of those who succumbed to the plague.
o A reference to the practice of burning the homes of plague sufferers to prevent spread of disease.
o A reference to the blackish discoloration of victims' skin from which the term "Black Plague" was derived.

The word "ashes" cannot be "a corruption of the sneezing sounds made by the infected person" and a word used for its literal meaning. Either "ashes" was a corruption of an earlier form or a deliberate use; it can't be both. Moreover, the "ashes" ending of "Ring Around the Rosie" appears to be a fairly modern addition to the rhyme; earlier versions repeat other words or syllables instead (e.g., "Hush!", "A-tischa!", "Hasher", "Husher", "Hatch-u", "A-tishoo") or, as noted above, have completely different endings.

* Children were apparently reciting this plague-inspired nursery rhyme for over six hundred years before someone finally figured out what they were talking about, as the first known mention of a plague interpretation of "Ring Around the Rosie" didn't show up until James Leasor published The Plague and the Fire in 1961. This sounds suspiciously like the "discovery," several decades after the fact, that L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was written as a coded parable about Populism. How come no contemporaries of Baum -- those much closer in time and place to what he was writing about -- ever noticed this? The answer is that Baum merely authored a children's book, and it was only much later that someone invented a fanciful interpretation of it -- an interpretation that has become more and more layered and embellished over the years and has now become widely accepted as "fact" despite all evidence to the contrary. It isn't difficult to imagine that such a process has been applied to "Ring Around the Rosie" as well, especially since we humans have such a fondness for trying to make sense of the nonsensical, seeking to find order in randomness, and especially for discovering and sharing secrets. The older the secret, the better (because age demonstrates the secret has eluded so many others before us), and so we've read "hidden" meanings into all sorts of innocuous nursery rhymes: The dish who ran away with the spoon in "Hey Diddle, Diddle" is really Queen Elizabeth I (or Catherine of Aragon or Catherine the Great), or "Humpty Dumpty" and "The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe" describe the "spread and fragmentation of the British Empire." (The process is aided by a general consensus that some nursery rhymes, such as "Old King Cole," quite likely were actually based on real historical figures.)

So, what does "Ring Around the Rosie" mean, then? Folklorist Philip Hiscock suggests:

Quote:
The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in North America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was called in the United States the "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring games which differed from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into the act, too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which involve rings of children, derive from these play-party games. "Little Sally Saucer" (or "Sally Waters") is one of them, and "Ring Around the Rosie" seems to be another. The rings referred to in the rhymes are literally the rings formed by the playing children. "Ashes, ashes" probably comes from something like "Husha, husha" (another common variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling silent. And the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when they let go of each other and throw themselves into the circle.

Like "A Tisket, A Tasket" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" or even "I Am the Walrus," the rhyme we call "Ring Around the Rosie" has no particular meaning, regardless of our latter day efforts to create one for it. They're all simply collections of words and sounds that someone thought sounded good together. As John Lennon once explained:

We've learned over the years that if we wanted we could write anything that just felt good or sounded good and it didn't necessarily have to have any particular meaning to us. As odd as it seemed to us, reviewers would take it upon themselves to interject their own meanings on our lyrics. Sometimes we sit and read other people's interpretations of our lyrics and think, 'Hey, that's pretty good.' If we liked it, we would keep our mouths shut and just accept the credit as if it was what we meant all along.
 

Sulhir


Sulhir

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:40 pm
Ah... Sorry... London Bridge has failed as well... sweatdrop
Urban Legends
Meaning -
The meaning of the rhyme is obscure. Most obviously, it relates to the many difficulties experienced in bridging the River Thames: London's earlier bridges did indeed "wash away" before a bridge built of "stone so strong" was constructed. It has been suggested that the "fair lady" who is "locked up" is a reference to an old practice of burying a dead virgin in the foundations of the bridge to ensure its strength through magical means, although the better view is that this refers to Queen Eleanor. Intriguingly, the rhyme is not confined to England and variants exist in many other western and central European countries.
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:43 pm
Jack and Jill -
Nursery Rhymes
There are several speculations about the origin of the nursery rhyme, including:

* marking the event in English history, when, in the 17th century, King Charles I tried to reform the taxes on liquid measures. He was blocked by Parliament, so subsequently ordered that the volume of a Jack (1/2 pint) be reduced, but the tax remained the same. This meant that he still received more tax, despite Parliament's veto. Hence "Jack fell down and broke his crown" (many pint glasses in the UK still have a line marking the 1/2 pint level with a crown above it) "and Jill came tumbling after". The reference to "Jill", (actually a "gill", or 1/4 pint) is an indication that the gill dropped in volume as a consequence.
* the village of Kilmersdon in Somerset has a long tradition of association with the nursery rhyme. It has been demonstrated that the surname Gilson probably originated in this area and could have been derived from 'son of Jill'.
* Jack and Jill are Louis XVI of France who was deposed and beheaded (lost his crown) followed by his Queen Marie Antoinette (who came tumbling after). The words and lyrics were made more palatable for the nursery by giving it a happy ending The first publication date for the lyrics of this nursery rhyme is 1795 which ties in with this history.
 

Sulhir


Dr_lecter1988
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:37 pm
Quote:
(How anyone could credibly assert that a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually "began about 1347" is a mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then "Ring Around the Rosie" antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have examples of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms.)


Plato and the illiad, Beowulf. shall i go on with songs/poems that weren't written down for hundreds of years but passed down orally? I never read the rhyme ring around the rosie in a book before the age of ten but i knew it at the age of 5 because of oral passing. somehow snopes doesn't hold much ground with me.  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:38 pm
Dr_lecter1988
Quote:
(How anyone could credibly assert that a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually "began about 1347" is a mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then "Ring Around the Rosie" antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have examples of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms.)


Plato and the illiad, Beowulf. shall i go on with songs/poems that weren't written down for hundreds of years but passed down orally? I never read the rhyme ring around the rosie in a book before the age of ten but i knew it at the age of 5 because of oral passing. somehow snopes doesn't hold much ground with me.
I didn't write it.  

Sulhir


Dr_lecter1988
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:53 pm
Sulhir
Dr_lecter1988
Quote:
(How anyone could credibly assert that a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually "began about 1347" is a mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then "Ring Around the Rosie" antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have examples of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms.)


Plato and the illiad, Beowulf. shall i go on with songs/poems that weren't written down for hundreds of years but passed down orally? I never read the rhyme ring around the rosie in a book before the age of ten but i knew it at the age of 5 because of oral passing. somehow snopes doesn't hold much ground with me.
I didn't write it.


i know sulhir, i was just poining out a flaw in the argument.  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:19 pm
ceilisidhe
In my fever - induced delirium I hummed the old nursery rhyme while contemplating the meaning behind the ditty and others like it. I'll share;


Ring around the rosies
sores from the bubonic plague were open sores with red swelling surrounding
A pocket full of posies
posies had a strong aroma and so were placed in the pockets of the bodies to help mask the stench before being placed on the street for pick-up by "burners"
Ashes, ashes
the bodies were incinerated in huge piles in the town square
We all fall down
no matter the precautions tens of thousands died. On a side note it was the church's decree that cats were demonic (hence superstitions about black cats) which caused a shortage of them (they were often captured and killed). Without cats to control the rat population.....you see the point.


London Bridges, amusingly enough, is about the French Revolution.

Feel free to post other rhymes with morbid or hidden undertones. (one about falling from branches comes to mind)


this reminds me a lot of the way i used to sing it when I was ten or so

"ring around the dead guy
pocket full of garlic
ashes, ashes
we all die now"

and regardless of how true it was or not...thats still what we all were told when we got slightly older

But the thing of it is...in true victorian style...most of our nursery rhyms are somewhat morbid. (the falling branches was my first inclanation as well)...
but even the concept of the word Grim...
this comes from the Grim fairy tales...which in there original form is not anything we would dare tell our children today...  

moongoyal


Dirzdra

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:16 pm
ceilisidhe
In my fever - induced delirium I hummed the old nursery rhyme while contemplating the meaning behind the ditty and others like it. I'll share;


Ring around the rosies
sores from the bubonic plague were open sores with red swelling surrounding
A pocket full of posies
posies had a strong aroma and so were placed in the pockets of the bodies to help mask the stench before being placed on the street for pick-up by "burners"
Ashes, ashes
the bodies were incinerated in huge piles in the town square
We all fall down
no matter the precautions tens of thousands died. On a side note it was the church's decree that cats were demonic (hence superstitions about black cats) which caused a shortage of them (they were often captured and killed). Without cats to control the rat population.....you see the point.


London Bridges, amusingly enough, is about the French Revolution.

Feel free to post other rhymes with morbid or hidden undertones. (one about falling from branches comes to mind)

No offense, but those are really commonly known. You don't need a fever to figure that out. I learned it in 7th grade history. That was 3 years ago.  
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