Nothing isn't Pagan anymore.

[Son of Axeman]

I stumbled upon the Jediism thread, and it shocked me. Sure, it's a serious philosophy, and I have nothing against it, but that is something like Jediism really something we, as Pagans/neopagans, want to be associated with?

Jedi are based on fiction. Based on Star Wars. now, am I the only one that sees the term Pagan associated with Star wars, and other such science-fiction? As opposed to being taken seriously, Paganism is being ridiculed, without the knowlage of those ridiculing us!

"Now, SoA, I'm tolerant! I can't exclude the Jedi, just because they're diffrent!"

I'm not telling you to exclude them. I'm using the Jedi as an example of one of the cases where paganism is being associated with science-fiction. I'm sick of people thinking me as some kind of sci-fi-obcessive freak for believing in a legitamate religion!

All I'm saying is that association with "orders" such as the Jedi, and any other "group" who's roots and origins are strictly and utterly fiction should not be distinguished as, accepted as, or relate to paganism. The term is tainted enough, without pictures of pagan symbols on Jedi banners, causing misassociations.

Discussion:

What are your views on fiction-based groups associating th themselves with Paganism? Why? What can be done to improve the public profile of pagans in general?

Footnote: It would seem that I am critical of the Jedi in the above article. I do not discriminate against any one group. However, the Jedi are not part of paganism, and, as such, have no place advertising themselves as such.  

[maenad nuri]

Honestly, I don't care.

Paganism isn't anything. Its not one religion. Thats the beauty of it. Its an umbrella term.

You want to raise the public profile of paganism? Let it be known we will accept all that want to use their intellect, their passion and strengths and seek their own path within it. Paganism, as a term, should be our uniter.

Fiction has its uses. Fiction is our new mythology. A shared vision. What makes that any different from my mythologies?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Son of Axeman

What are your views on fiction-based groups associating th themselves with Paganism? Why? What can be done to improve the public profile of pagans in general?

Supply me with some fiction-based religions?  

[AvalonAuggie]

Well I definitely see your point although I'm not sure whether the core problem here is the wide applicability of the term "Pagan" (which is, let's face it, an issue that's not going to be resolved anytime soon), or sci-fi fans taking things too literally. ..which also isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.

Is it bad press for Jediism to be associated with Paganism? I don't know. Frankly at this point I'm of the opinion that anything showing Paganism as not the exclusive domain of Wicca helps present Paganism as the wonderful, varied, screwed-up melting pot-ish umbrella term that it is. I also think that actually basing your religious beliefs on Star Wars is pretty silly. (That said, I was raised on Star Wars and I will love those movies until I die, no matter how many new ways Lucas thinks up to ruin them)

It's a bit odd to call Jediism "Paganism" per se, since (and correct me if I'm wrong here) a lot of the philosophical basis is Buddhist in flavor, and Buddhism generally doesn't associate itself with Paganism.

I've got a question for you, SoA: Would your issue with Jediism calling itself Paganism extend to other fiction-based religions that have a closer ideological tie to common Pagan religions? for example, I know there's some sort of tradition out there based on the Mists of Avalon series, do you also challenge their legiimacy as a Pagan religion?  

[maenad nuri]

AvalonAuggie

I've got a question for you, SoA: Would your issue with Jediism calling itself Paganism extend to other fiction-based religions that have a closer ideological tie to common Pagan religions? for example, I know there's some sort of tradition out there based on the Mists of Avalon series, do you also challenge their legiimacy as a Pagan religion?

That's exactly what I was thinking of. I think they are nuts as well, but their beliefs certinaly meld with a certain segment of paganism.  

[Tsuzuki]

Couldn't George Lucas sue over trademark infringement?  

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

Couldn't George Lucas sue over trademark infringement?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a court that would touch that based upon seperation of Church and State  

[SleepyKelvina]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

Couldn't George Lucas sue over trademark infringement?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a court that would touch that based upon seperation of Church and State

It would be absolutely hillarious if he did. Though it would be more prudent of him to pat all the wannabe Jedis on the back and encourage them to buy more of his merchandice.  

[Tsuzuki]

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

Couldn't George Lucas sue over trademark infringement?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a court that would touch that based upon seperation of Church and State

Churches are still legal entities, and people have sued them before. Just because there's a separation of church and state doesn't mean that people have the right to break the law in the name of religion, and I know of a number of religions that have had to restructure themselves due to some of their practices becoming illegal. This here seems like a clear case of trademark infringement.

SleepyKelvina

It would be absolutely hillarious if he did. Though it would be more prudent of him to pat all the wannabe Jedis on the back and encourage them to buy more of his merchandice.

By law, Lucas is required to prosecute or risk losing the trademark.  

[MST3Kakalina]

TheDisreputableDog

Son of Axeman

What are your views on fiction-based groups associating th themselves with Paganism? Why? What can be done to improve the public profile of pagans in general?

Supply me with some fiction-based religions?

scientology. OH ZING.

also, people do make serious use of the Lovecraftian mythos. how much of it is pure fiction and how much is actual research, i'm not sure.

on the one hand, i can see Axeman's point. something based in fiction (Star Wars, Lovecraft, etc) does have the connotation of being fake and somehow less serious than established religions based in faith-based writings like the Bible, the Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, whatever. to have paganism (whatever it really IS) associated with these paths would imply that paganism is equally "foundationless." not to say they ARE fake or foundationless, of course.


of course, the problem is we have no definition of paganism, aside from more or less useless things like "not Judeo-Christian." this also gets into a huge argument about what constitutes a valid spiritual path and all of that, which is a HUGE can of worms but i'll say that whatever works for you is fine until it interrupts your day-to-day functions. just believing you're the Messiah and can cure cancer and walk on water doesn't make it so--mustard seed my a**.


and it seems to me that as long as the organization acknowledges that all Jedi-related material and such is copyrighted to George Lucas and doesn't take credit for it, it's in the clear. maybe they even asked him for permission.  

[TeaDidikai]

Tsuzuki

TeaDidikai

Tsuzuki

Couldn't George Lucas sue over trademark infringement?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a court that would touch that based upon seperation of Church and State

Churches are still legal entities, and people have sued them before. Just because there's a separation of church and state doesn't mean that people have the right to break the law in the name of religion, and I know of a number of religions that have had to restructure themselves due to some of their practices becoming illegal. This here seems like a clear case of trademark infringement.

True, however, to sue someone based upon the fact that their theology is related to your work- I guess the real question is do they make money from his TM's and Copyrights.

Otherwise, you fall flat on the First Amd, Ja?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Nuri

Fiction has its uses. Fiction is our new mythology. A shared vision. What makes that any different from my mythologies?

I'm with Nuri on that part. People have a blind spot where their own religions are concerned--mythology kinda is fiction. To use the Bible as an example, we really have no way of knowing whether any of the events set down as Jesus' life actually happened; it's not unthinkable that those who wrote down or translated the accounts might make up an event to prove a point, regardless of whether Jesus was a real man or not. There must be some embellishment to say the least, because there is embellishment and/or bias in any account of any event.

What's true for the Bible is true for any body of religious knowledge, whether written down or not. None of us has any way to know which version is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, and that's not even the point for most of us. So some people would rather turn to Lovecraft's mythos instead of an established religion. Wicca's only been around for fifty, sixty years but at its best most people would consider it a "proper" religion. In a hundred years who knows what will be a religion and what won't.

As for whether we want them to be associated with paganism, we don't even have a definition for it. Without a proper definition, it's hard to start excluding people. The furry community went through this schism awhile ago: are we mainly about art, or sex, or roleplaying? The Christian community went through this schism a long time ago: are icons a violation of the commandment against graven images or not? That's how we ended up with the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not to mention all the Protestant sects that decided they didn't like something or other Mother Church was doing and broke off from the herd to form their own herds.  

[WebenBanu]

Nuri

You want to raise the public profile of paganism? Let it be known we will accept all that want to use their intellect, their passion and strengths and seek their own path within it. Paganism, as a term, should be our uniter.

Actually, I'd argue that that's a good way to ruin Paganism's public image- not to mention tearing the movement itself to shreds.^_^' That's exactly what NeoWicca did: "we accept everyone! Create your own religion! heart " And by dissolving all definitive boundaries they completely lost their identity, and now many people (in and out of the Pagan movement) have a hard time taking Wicca seriously.-_- While using your intellect, passion, and strengths to seek your own path is a good thing, I'm very wary of throwing open the doors and allowing anyone and everyone to dub themselves as a part of my spiritual family. There is something to be said for credibility and methodology, and while I adore the philosophy of the Jedi (and I personally believe that Lucas was at least in some way inspired by the tales of Djedi- a powerful, but ethical ancient Egyptian magician-priest^_~), it is fiction. Mythology isn't just the last millenia's best seller list. There is an essential difference between the two.

I say that if people find inspiration in fictional works, and they are exclusive to the point where they are not willing to separate the ideals which draw them from the fictional characters who presently illustrate them, then by all means they should feel free to pursuse their own map of the terrain which we are all attempting to traverse. But they are not Pagans- they belong to their own spiritual family, and they deserve their own name.

(And yes, I would place Mists of Avalon in the same group as the Jedis- and also anyone who worships- literally- Sailor Moon, and anyone else who claims fictional characters for their pantheon.^_^)  

[TeaDidikai]

WebenBanu

(And yes, I would place Mists of Avalon in the same group as the Jedis- and also anyone who worships- literally- Sailor Moon, and anyone else who claims fictional characters for their pantheon.^_^)

I don't know- I think to date Pratchett has the best image of a goddess of Luck I have ever seen.  

[Tsuzuki]

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