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 Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:40 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:47 pm
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This might help
TeaDidikai Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1The conflict within Christianity over Witchcraft is a bullshit political contrivance. Lets address the translation errors. Some of these are so skewed as to completely change passages in their entirety, some merely alter the meanings of the words within the Tanakh. Quote: "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto The Lord: and because of these abominations The Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12 KJV) "Divination" is from the Hebrew "qecem" which is also used in Prov 16:10, is only a bad thing when done with unclean spirits (as is noted by it's positive used in Proverbs). The word denotes seeking insights from spirits. It is used in both positive and negative lights within the context of scripture, making it clear that the action of seeking guidance from said spirit is only a boon or bane to the faith within the context of the purity of the spirit in question. "Observer of Times" is summed up within the Hebrew 'anan, which means "covering things" - either by using trickery to pass for prophecy or more likely speaking hidden things, or lies to hide the truth. "An Enchanter" is summed up in the Hebrew nachash, which meant to hiss or whisper. An open condemnation of gossip to one's benefit. "Witch" is a faulty translation of kashaph, which is to pray or offer prayers in worship. It needs context unless you are going to damn all of Christendom. The context is straightforward, it addresses those of YHVH's children who do so to gods other than YHVH. This is established in direct opposition to YHVH's commandments. "Charmer" is mistranslated from the Hebrew chabar, which means to unite and in context is to unite through trickery. Familiar Spirits come from the word 'owb or "wine skins", which is a direct condemnation prophecy from a bottle- aka, taking drunken ranting as divine edict. More over this ties to the prohibition of using grape products that are of a non-Jewish processing as the initial Kosher Laws within the Jewish faith cite the fact that wine was often consecrated to pagan gods at each step of the fermentation process. "Wizard" is from the word "yidda`oniy", which means a false prophet. Necromancer is a piss poor translation of darash, who is a seeker- once again within context of seeking unclean spirits for guidance. Quote: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18 KJV) This one is pretty straight forward. "Witch" as cited above is kashaph, and only applies within the context of the Torah to those who entered into covenant with YHVH at the Mountain and betray YHVH. Quote: "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry." (1 Samuel 15:23 KJV) "Witchcraft" is translated from qecem once again for this part of the text. Quote: "Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times . . . Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (Lev. 19:26, 31) And now we're back to the Hebrew and nachash and 'anan have already been covered. As have 'owb and yidda`oniy as are already explained above. Quote: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV) At least within the Greek we have a new term. Pharmakeia- or herbalist or medicine maker. This is a three fold issue. First, we have the use of plants to poison rather than heal. That goes directly against the Law of Love and the Commandments. The added insult to injury is the benefit the poisoner would gain from his actions. We have established above with concepts such as nachash- in which deception is wrong holds a larger debt when done for one's personal benefit. This is a very pragmatic approach that is seen even within our modern culture. Accidents are forgiven, direct harm and crimes of passion are punished, but premeditation to profit on another's suffering is damned even further. It makes perfect sense that someone who would hide a death by poison for their benefit would be in unfavorable standing with YHVH. Boxy's interjection -- pharmakeia also means "pariah" or "exile" in Greek. Part of the cultural context of this is that murderers were expelled from the community under pain of death. Thus you have the added context of confirmed murderers hanging around where they're not supposed to, which causes problems to the people of YHVH.Quote: "Blessed are they that do His Commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV) Let's ignore for a moment the fact that Revelation's is one big political satire aimed at Nero. "Sorcerers" once again is translated from pharmakos as addressed above. Quote: "Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Rev. 9:21) "Sorceries" has the same root as above. Unrepentant poisoners aren't likely to have YHVH's mercy if they are one of his children. The key being unrepentant. Quote: "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev. 18:23) Aside from the fact the Greek is getting repetitive, you have to hand the use of imagery by John to condemn pharmakeia as the poisoners of nations. It's either a metaphor, or the common practice of poisoning wells and salting lands sending governments into chaos. Exd 23:22 addresses YHVH's stance on being an enemy to his Children. However, within the context of metaphor, we revisit pharmakeia in a new light- that is to say, to poison with words. We have already established that False Prophets, or yidda`oniy. Even the New Testament condemns them in Mat 7:15, Mat 24:24 and Mar 13:22. This is why 1Jo 4:1 demands one test the spirits that give rise to prophecy. I realize I am using bastardized approximated Hebrew (one of these days I will have Hebrew enabled on this computer), but it will do in a pinch. Now, the Jewish Faith does not actively seek to convert others. The reason for this is that they understand that to enter covenant with their god is not a universal demand from their god. Not everyone is called to serve YHVH. Most of the mass conversion comes out of Paul's edicts from Acts onward, not Yeshua's within the Gospels. The OT establishes not only that YHVH has a covenant with his people- being the children of Adam and Eve, but that other gods exist. Note how the Ten Commandments does not assert that all other gods are false gods outside of eisegesis, but it names gods other than YHVH within the OT such as Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians found in 1Kings. Now- we know that Original Sin is tied to Adam and Eve's line. As Adam and Eve are not the only point of Creation within the Scripture (note the lack of YHVH's presence in Gen 1:1), it stands to reason that there is no more evidence that they are the only humans (note in Genesis how Cain takes a wife from humans already established in the lands East of Eden). The Bible is the communication of the decedents of Adam and Eve and YHVH's relationship with his creation. It stands to reason that his relationship which is turned into a Covenant at Mt. Sinai does not apply to those who are not of that line- especially considering the context of the revelation of YHVH to his children and the formation of the Jewish faith as a direct edict applying to them, not to the people that were the Children and descendents of other gods such as the People of Cain's wife- or Seth's wife. These other peoples are consistently referred to in the OT. See: Jer 10:2 and Lev. 18:3. YHVH clearly states he is not the god of these pagan peoples- but at no time does he say that these gods are not real. Pagan peoples have their own gods their own lineage and heritage. Thus only those in covenant with YHVH are bound by his laws. Furthermore- the scripture itself, when it context does not damn those who practice qecem within the guidelines of Clean spirits found within YHVH's domain.
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:53 pm
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I'm probably not very helpful for the primary question here, but I can throw in my two cents on a bit of it.
Synnthetika Also, is it YHVH, YWHV, Jehova or something else? Are they different names for different being altogether? I know Elohim is the oldest one, at least if I recall correctly from World Religion... sweatdrop
It's YHWH or YHVH. YHVH is more accurate to the Hebrew pronunciation of the consonants. "Jehovah" is a German-influenced interpretation, using the vowels that Hebrew writers occasionally attached to YHVH. These aren't the vowels of the name the consonants spell; they belong to the word "adonai" and were meant specifically to prevent you from accidentally pronouncing YHVH properly.
They're just different interpretations of the same name. Elohim is a title that is applied to numerous Semitic Gods, but has since been used for YHVH exclusively by Jews.
Quote: And what do you think about Christian Witchcraft. Is it possible? Are there restrictions? Can you do just about any kind of witchcraft and still be Christian? What role, if any, does Gnosticism have with Witchcraft?
I know there are some Christian witches here, and I can think of a couple practices that might be considered witchcraft that are used by Christians. As far as restrictions go - if it violates Agape, it's out. Whether violating Agape (actively and purposefully) makes you not a Christian is probably debatable - and I hope our Gnostics have something to say. XP
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:57 pm
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Collowrath I'm probably not very helpful for the primary question here, but I can throw in my two cents on a bit of it. Synnthetika Also, is it YHVH, YWHV, Jehova or something else? Are they different names for different being altogether? I know Elohim is the oldest one, at least if I recall correctly from World Religion... sweatdrop It's YHWH or YHVH. YHVH is more accurate to the Hebrew pronunciation of the consonants. "Jehovah" is a German-influenced interpretation, using the vowels that Hebrew writers occasionally attached to YHVH. These aren't the vowels of the name the consonants spell; they belong to the word "adonai" and were meant specifically to prevent you from accidentally pronouncing YHVH properly. They're just different interpretations of the same name. Elohim is a title that is applied to numerous Semitic Gods, but has since been used for YHVH exclusively by Jews. Quote: And what do you think about Christian Witchcraft. Is it possible? Are there restrictions? Can you do just about any kind of witchcraft and still be Christian? What role, if any, does Gnosticism have with Witchcraft? I know there are some Christian witches here, and I can think of a couple practices that might be considered witchcraft that are used by Christians. As far as restrictions go - if it violates Agape, it's out. Whether violating Agape (actively and purposefully) makes you not a Christian is probably debatable - and I hope our Gnostics have something to say. XP
Oh okay, I thought so, but it's been a while since I took World Religion and I wasn't sure if I got it right or not. Thanks!
What is Agape exactly? |
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:58 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:01 pm
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Synnthetika rmcdra This might help TeaDidikai Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1... This is exactly what I was looking for actually, thank you! I was searching on Gaia search for it all morning, but I couldn't remember who wrote it and I couldn't find it. Do you know which thread it was in, or has it been cross-posted a lot?
Though somewhere in the Guild is a whole thread about it, prior to Boxy's interjection.
Agape means love. In Christian Context, it's unconditional love. |
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:01 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:03 pm
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:10 pm
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Synnthetika Also, is it YHVH, YWHV, Jehova or something else? Are they different names for different being altogether? I know Elohim is the oldest one, at least if I recall correctly from World Religion... sweatdrop
I'm partial to YHVH because of the sounds in the Hebrew language.
Quote: And what do you think about Christian Witchcraft. Is it possible? Are there restrictions? Can you do just about any kind of witchcraft and still be Christian?
Quote: What role, if any, does Gnosticism have with Witchcraft?
In addition to Collowrath's note- it extends to enemies as well. |
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:11 am
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TeaDidikai Synnthetika rmcdra This might help TeaDidikai Tea's Witchcraft within Christendom v2.1... This is exactly what I was looking for actually, thank you! I was searching on Gaia search for it all morning, but I couldn't remember who wrote it and I couldn't find it. Do you know which thread it was in, or has it been cross-posted a lot? Cross posted lots. Though somewhere in the Guild is a whole thread about it, prior to Boxy's interjection. Agape means love. In Christian Context, it's unconditional love.
What kind of sources did you use to come up with this? Most of it seems linguistical, so was it just something you learned out of a linguistics class/resources? |
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:21 am
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:22 am
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:57 am
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:31 am
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TeaDidikai ShadowCatSoul If witchcraft is perfectly ok within the Christian religion, why is it always taught to be an evil thing? Because the vast majority of Christians couldn't read their scripture in the context and languages it was originally penned if their life depended on it. Look at how full of errors the KJV is. It's a byproduct of Jame's personal fears and paranoia compounded with his political agenda. What do you expect from an uneducated clergy and an even poorer educated laity?
Makes sense. |
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:58 am
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TeaDidikai ShadowCatSoul If witchcraft is perfectly ok within the Christian religion, why is it always taught to be an evil thing? Because the vast majority of Christians couldn't read their scripture in the context and languages it was originally penned if their life depended on it. Look at how full of errors the KJV is. It's a byproduct of Jame's personal fears and paranoia compounded with his political agenda. What do you expect from an uneducated clergy and an even poorer educated laity?
For some reason an image of an entire group of Asatru learning solely from Manowar lyrics pillaged its way through my mind and laid waste to all it could reach. gonk |
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