i need a bit of clarification here. ok. a lot.

[TeaDidikai]

Takozu

i believe in several different key ideas of Wicca, i.e. reincarnation, or better yet, the Lord and Lady, but, i associate these with other beliefs, i.e. Yin and Yang (not so much religiously, but the same basic idea?)

You have to remember that Wica isn't about belief. It's about practice. There are numerous religions that have a polarity between masculine and feminine forces compounded by reincarnation.

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i also have a dash of shamanistic belief in there with the whatnot of animal/spiritual guides, but that's about all of it.

What makes it Shamanic? What elements of the East Asian/Siberian otherworld traditions do you hold?

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also, i'm not super into organized religion! (so far as churches, covens, ect. i was raised baptist, then grew to despise organized religion, is this a hypocritical statement?) so would that take me off the neopagan list altogether?

There isn't anything about being a neo-pagan that says you have to like organized religion, though I would encourage you not to fall into a guilt by association fallacy and reexamine what about it you dislike.

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the more i read, the more i get lead into circles by each individual's opinion, such as 'yes, you can be a solo practitioner if there are no covens nearby,' & 'no, you can't be a solo practitioner, you have to be initiated.'
and it's all making my brain hurt.

i think that sums it up.

There are solitary eclectic pagan religions. Tons of them really- since they have deviations from one another to different degrees.

Let's do this.
In one or two words each, list your different beliefs.
If there is a question raised by one of these words, we can explore it thus helping you to understand your positions better and us to help narrow down if there is a specific tradition that may suit you better than generic eclectic neo-paganism, since really, generic eclectic neo-paganism isn't a tradition but an umbrella term.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

You can find plenty of texts and books online
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
This site has a wide range of texts that you can view, this might be useful to you.

My best answer is that you are you. Find beliefs that make sense. Think through the preconceptions you have. Think and assess what you believe and why you believe them.

I have many beliefs because of personal experiences. I have met people with spirit guides, I have met spirit guides, yet I have none of my own. I don't follow a path that has a person guiding me. I don't follow a god but I have met other peoples gods, that was interesting. I believe these things exist because I've seen them but they didn't fit my personal beliefs and guidelines so I don't follow them. Make sure also that you are following a system for the right reason. Because its something that strikes true to you  

[Tikat]

Ishtar Shakti

You can find plenty of texts and books online
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
This site has a wide range of texts that you can view, this might be useful to you.

Some of the texts on that site belong to closed traditions.

It's also a lot of information to have to sift through.

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My best answer is that you are you. Find beliefs that make sense. Think through the preconceptions you have. Think and assess what you believe and why you believe them.

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Because its something that strikes true to you

Why no mention being being ethical? Being responsible? Isn't this what this guild is about?  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Tikat

Ishtar Shakti

You can find plenty of texts and books online
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
This site has a wide range of texts that you can view, this might be useful to you.

Some of the texts on that site belong to closed traditions.

It's also a lot of information to have to sift through.

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My best answer is that you are you. Find beliefs that make sense. Think through the preconceptions you have. Think and assess what you believe and why you believe them.

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Because its something that strikes true to you

Why no mention being being ethical? Being responsible? Isn't this what this guild is about?

That is alot of information to sift through, but I find its good to give people access to information if they need it.
What do you mean by closed traditions?

Generally speaking Ethics and Responsibility tend to be very subjective. I wouldn't want to try to impose my view on ethics and responsible behavior on others.

I believe that people with time develop their own sense of ethics. They develop a sense of right and wrong. Generally speaking unless someone is doing something that implies harm to another I don't consider unethical.

Also many views on ethics are path dependent and disputable. Depending on the path the person chooses my responses would differ. Responsibility implies obligation and obligations are something that people adopt. As we are all part of the same world... I would say we have certain responsibilities towards the people we share space with... but I wouldn't impose responsibilities on a person that they haven't accepted. It doesn't seem proper to me.

Mentioning concepts such as Harm and avoiding harm is about as close to imposing my beliefs on others. I'm usually not very direct. If they do something which does harm someone I will mention and try to explain the other persons view. It is just my approach to the matter.  

[Tikat]

Ishtar Shakti

That is alot of information to sift through, but I find its good to give people access to information if they need it.

But what you did doesn't help her. She's looking for a boat, you gave her the ocean.

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What do you mean by closed traditions?

Traditions that you can't belong to simply by reading a book.

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Generally speaking Ethics and Responsibility tend to be very subjective. I wouldn't want to try to impose my view on ethics and responsible behavior on others.

Relativism is a self defeating position.

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I believe that people with time develop their own sense of ethics. They develop a sense of right and wrong. Generally speaking unless someone is doing something that implies harm to another I don't consider unethical.

But that is the problem with blanket endorsements. What standards are there for harm.

You may have completely overwhelmed the initial poster so that instead of seeking, she decides to ignore a calling because of your actions.

You may have encouraged her to delve shallowly into traditions wherein her claiming to be a member will open her up to pacts she is not willing to accept, yet is forced to by her shallow understanding based upon your open ended advise.

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Also many views on ethics are path dependent and disputable. Depending on the path the person chooses my responses would differ.

Which is part of the problem. There isn't enough context for you to tell if she is going to make a decision based on your words that will cause harm- harm you encouraged.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Ishtar Shakti

Generally speaking Ethics and Responsibility tend to be very subjective. I wouldn't want to try to impose my view on ethics and responsible behavior on others.

Well wouldn't that be a shame. I guess we should stop jailing rapists and murderers because we wouldn't want to impose ethics and responsibility on people. Gosh.

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Also many views on ethics are path dependent and disputable.

Ethics depends on logic. The ethics are only disputable if the logic is disputable.

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Depending on the path the person chooses my responses would differ.

Some paths are irresponsible and unethical.

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but I wouldn't impose responsibilities on a person that they haven't accepted. It doesn't seem proper to me.

So clearly, we shouldn't require people not to steal or kill each other.

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If they do something which does harm someone I will mention and try to explain the other persons view. It is just my approach to the matter.

Good luck with that. I'm sure lots of rapists and murderers will listen to your attempt to educate them in your subjective viewpoint.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

While you might not be able to be a part of those traditions based on just reading a book it is still useful to expose yourself to many different religions and belief systems.

Is it so wrong to give her access if she so wishes to use it?
You also seem to be short changing the original poster. You assume that something may cause harm, that she is incapable of deciding for herself what path works best for her. What beliefs she agrees with.

I think it is more important to empower the questioner to find her own path. To expose herself to different idea's and beliefs and to become a generally well educated individual then to tell her to follow a specific path. I also believe that she is capable of learning and understanding right and wrong given time. Rather then telling her what calling to follow I suggest her finding her own calling.
I suggest reading and learning and exposing yourself to many different paths. That I believe is better then devoting yourself to a specific calling that you may delve deeply into, believe completely, and then latter find out doesn't work for you. Its not good to close yourself off to the rest of the world.

Your views on relativism are yours. Not mine. I find it a very useful view point to have

While I could debate how to deal with rapists and murderers and how to prevent and what may cause those traits to exist. I won't, that wouldn't be productive for the person who made the thread. If you want to make a thread about morals I will delve into it then.  

[Tikat]

Ishtar Shakti

While you might not be able to be a part of those traditions based on just reading a book it is still useful to expose yourself to many different religions and belief systems.

Actually, there are traditions that will refuse to allow participation if the seeker violates their Closed Status.

So in reality, a blanket suggestion of "read everything you can get your hands on" can be very harmful. She may have an actual calling to an initiatory path that has guidelines and rules regarding what you can read before your initiation. Breaking those rules disqualifies you from initiation.

In short- if she follows your advice, because it is so generalized and doesn't actually take into account her needs, you could be harming her.

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Is it so wrong to give her access if she so wishes to use it?

In many cases, yes.
The example above comes to mind. I know Wiccan Priests who will not initiate people who have read the open source Book of Shadows for example.

I know of whole Thelemic Lodges that will not initiate someone who has already read their initiation rituals.

This is why your words are so damaging. Why being inconsiderate of the details and subtle etiquette of other traditions is not responsible.

This guild is here to help people be responsible. If you are going to offer advice, you need to be responsible too.

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You also seem to be short changing the original poster. You assume that something may cause harm, that she is incapable of deciding for herself what path works best for her. What beliefs she agrees with.

No, I am pointing out that your words don't allow for that choice. Once the damage is done, it's done. Posit for a moment that she was being called by something they couldn't fathom, and on your recommendation she investigated a Closed Tradition that has the kinds of prohibitions mentioned above.

Your words, however sincere and well meaning, have stolen from her what would have been a fulfilling path- something that her very soul and Will long for.

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I think it is more important to empower the questioner to find her own path. To expose herself to different idea's and beliefs and to become a generally well educated individual then to tell her to follow a specific path.

I agree it is important to empower Seekers. But I also acknowledge that this doesn't mean a free for all. That with the desire to help others comes the responsibility of doing it in a way that won't bite them.

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I also believe that she is capable of learning and understanding right and wrong given time. Rather then telling her what calling to follow I suggest her finding her own calling.

But you advocated an irresponsible method of doing so.

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I suggest reading and learning and exposing yourself to many different paths. That I believe is better then devoting yourself to a specific calling that you may delve deeply into, believe completely, and then latter find out doesn't work for you. Its not good to close yourself off to the rest of the world.

You do a disservice to spiritual seeking. People may invest decades into paths that will eventually be discarded. But to steal the chance away from someone to join their calling out of ignorance and advocacy for irresponsible searching- that isn't okay.

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Your views on relativism are yours. Not mine. I find it a very useful view point to have

Why would you cling to something that can be proven wrong?

I mean, doesn't that kind of willful ignorance defeat the whole point of this guild?

If you are going turn a blind eye and ignore proof, actual proof, that a position is wrong, why are you here? You seem to be doing more damage to people than good.

It would really help the discussion if you would stop dismissing counter points as essentially being worthless because they aren't yours.

Relativism takes two forms, positive claims and negative claims.
For the positive claim of "All truth is relative", the statement must be true 100% of the time- thus providing an example of a truth that is not relative. Thus, it makes the statement that all truth is relative a falsehood.

When we see the negative claim "There are no absolute truths", it would need to be an absolute truth to be true, therefore, there is absolute truth, which shows this statement is false.

What's more- if it is true, then you cannot believe that anything is absolutely true, even the claim that there is no absolute truth.

If you suggest that relativism is personal, that what is true for me isn't true for you, you hit a brick wall when I say that relativism is false. If you disagree, then what is true for me is not true- and thus relativism is shown false once again.

If on the otherhand you acknowledge that my position of relativism being false is true, then you have demonstrated that relativism self contradicts and is false.

If you suggest that relativism is only false for me, which is what I believe you are attempting to say, then either I am believing in something other than relativism, so how can relativism be true- since it is objectively false for me?
If you suggest that relativism within an individual's perspective can be false, then you create an internal contradiction within relativism.


If on the other hand you suggest that for me relativism is false, then realitivism can't be true- since what is true for me isn't actually true for me, thus leading us back to the initial positive claim.

If you suggest that relativism isn't true or false, then relativism can't be true since relativism says that your view is as valid as mine, and by not allowing my position to be considered as valid as yours- you have defeated relativism by it's very nature, creating another paradox.

This is the basics of the proof, I can go on, detailing the logic further if you would like.

However, in the long run, you are doing harm. You said you find harming others to be irresponsible. By issuing a carte blanche encouragement to pry into any tradition one wishes, you are encouraging irresponsible behavior- something this guild is here to stop.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

I have heard that certain priests wont teach individuals who have already started learning the texts on their own. As they would consider it a matter of disrespect to their text. From what I know of this practice some take this standpoint because they want the individual using their operant definitions. This is understandable in some contexts it really depends. Much of the time I don't agree with this standpoint.

Much like certain texts are "not to be viewed" by someone who is not a believer. That it would disrespect their tradition and view point for someone outside of their religion to see it. I personally don't feel disrespectful yet if it is that persons view point I will respect their desire for me to not read it.
That of course would require me to know someone who specifically asked me not to read the text. I find nothing intrinsic in the text that indicates that I shouldn't read it.
Information should be spread and I have found very little harm in spreading it. That web site is a tool, it gives a person Oppurtunities to read texts they might otherwise not have access to in her home. How she uses a tool says nothing of the tool itself.

It is not a matter of the path being discarded but the Pain the path can cause in others when exposed to beliefs and idea's that are outside their path. The pain that is caused when a person has invested 15 years of their life to one path and then to find information which rocks them to the core... it hurts them.

In anycase I should research which paths are closed paths. As you already know which ones are closed would you post the names and texts not to read so that she may know which.
@ relativism I'm fairly certain that things can exist and not exist at the same time. I see no contradiction here. Whether you see the expression of its existence depends on factors.  

[Tikat]

Ishtar Shakti

I have heard that certain priests wont teach individuals who have already started learning the texts on their own. As they would consider it a matter of disrespect to their text. From what I know of this practice some take this standpoint because they want the individual using their operant definitions. This is understandable in some contexts it really depends. Much of the time I don't agree with this standpoint.

But it isn't your place to profane others sacred things simply because you disagree with them- or at least, such would not be the position of an individual who held any kindness for their fellow man.

There is more to it than that though. Much of the text is less about definition, and more about not having the tools for the individual to build their own understanding.

For example, British Traditional Witchcraft doesn't tell what people to believe- but it does need the person to experience things a certain way so that they can gather the tools they need to build their own understanding within the Craft.

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Much like certain texts are "not to be viewed" by someone who is not a believer. That it would disrespect their tradition and view point for someone outside of their religion to see it. I personally don't feel disrespectful yet if it is that persons view point I will respect their desire for me to not read it.

This position is insulting.

Basically, everyone else is worth less than you are- and you only humor individuals. You say you have met other people's gods- they are worth less than you are, because your opinion as to how they should build a relationship with others is more important then what is right for them and those who follow them.

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That of course would require me to know someone who specifically asked me not to read the text. I find nothing intrinsic in the text that indicates that I shouldn't read it.
Information should be spread and I have found very little harm in spreading it.

Because it hasn't harmed you, it causes no harm?

This is perhaps the most hurtful post I have ever seen you write.

It ignores the feelings of others- it justifies your right by power to degrade other traditions.

Basically, because of your status, because you have the ability to take what you want and do with it what you want, you suggest it is justified without a second thought for others.

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That web site is a tool, it gives a person Oppurtunities to read texts they might otherwise not have access to in her home. How she uses a tool says nothing of the tool itself.

When the tool is made by stealing, it does.

Some of those texts were never meant to be revealed to the public. They were, through deception and lies, through theft of texts from people facing genocide and other such things.

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It is not a matter of the path being discarded but the Pain the path can cause in others when exposed to beliefs and idea's that are outside their path.

They are seeking until they have a path.

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The pain that is caused when a person has invested 15 years of their life to one path and then to find information which rocks them to the core... it hurts them.

It can. But you seem to not understand how transformitive that pain can be. That pain is part of their path, part of their growth. It is a pain that is caused by change, not a pain that is caused by another cutting them off from a part of themselves.

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In anycase I should research which paths are closed paths. As you already know which ones are closed would you post the names and texts not to read so that she may know which.

Thelemic rites, most of the sections on Jewish mysticism, anything that is of lineaged Wiccan origin, Irish and Roma cultural traditions, some Hindu paths... I haven't reviewed the whole site.

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@ relativism I'm fairly certain that things can exist and not exist at the same time. I see no contradiction here. Whether you see the expression of its existence depends on factors.

You shifted the goal posts.

Experiencing, or a lack of experience of a thing does not negate it's existence. Your only attempt to counter proof that your position is wrong is also demonstrated to be false.

Perpetuating falsehoods is not a justifiable action in a guild that is trying to educate people and help them be responsible.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Ishtar Shakti

Your views on relativism are yours. Not mine. I find it a very useful view point to have

I am amused that you use a system that literally contradicts itself. Cognitive dissonance must be enjoyable for you.

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While I could debate how to deal with rapists and murderers and how to prevent and what may cause those traits to exist. I won't, that wouldn't be productive for the person who made the thread. If you want to make a thread about morals I will delve into it then.

You made a statement that essentially gave free reign to rapists and murderers to keep on doing what they want to do. I find that abhorrent and said so. You introduced the concept of subjective ethics to the thread, not me, I merely responded.

Withdraw the claim that ethics are subjective and relative or concede the point and we can move on.  

[TeaDidikai]

So... uh... back to the most useful advice in the thread so far:

How about you post the beliefs you hold, and we'll see if we can use that to narrow down your research scope.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

So... uh... back to the most useful advice in the thread so far:

How about you post the beliefs you hold, and we'll see if we can use that to narrow down your research scope.

Also any practices the OP engages in for possible orthopraxy connections too.  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

Also any practices the OP engages in for possible orthopraxy connections too.

I'm less worried about orthopraxy, since there isn't an established mandate within what she is doing now.