Magical Ethics and the Internet

[WebenBanu]

In another guild we recently had an encounter with a very rude and emotionally unstable young man who flamed us all for sitting around to chat pleasantly, rather than getting "serious" and talking about the real "majik." Fortunately, he left- but our dearly departed friend brought this subject of concern back to the fore in my mind, and I thought that it would make a good discussion if we all posted our thoughts here.

Whenever you train a person in- or even expose a person to- a technique (really, any sort of technique, but here we'll talk about specifically magical ones), you become partially responsible for anything that they do with it. You're not completely at fault if they decide to run amok- but you put the tool in their hands and they couldn't have whacked anybody with it if you had not. When this happens, you become an accomplice to their misdeeds- and also to contribution toward that person's own moral corruption, because you gave them the outlet through which they have expressed and developed it. Whether you believe in laws of return or not is beside the point- it still constitutes an ethical liability whenever you share magical information with another person, and even moreso when you're sharing your information at will over a public service such as the internet!

Now, we are all obviously in a guild- and that is certainly more private than posting on forums like the ED, on online journals, or Pagan/occult internet communities outside of Gaia. But we still don't know who exactly is going to come through here, and whether they're emotionally mature or responsible enough to have access to the information which we may want to share.-_- I know that I, personally, don't even know all the people who are currently mentioned on the guild roster, because they're not all active right now- and I know even less about who may be joining later, or even simply browsing through our forums.

And yet I do want to have magical discussions with you fine folks, here and elsewhere on the 'net- both for my own education, and to share what I know with others. While magical knowledge has always been safely guarded, it is also true that a thing which is too tightly bound can not fulfill its function. My spiritual tradition tells me that magic is a gift from the gods, and that Ra Himself gave it to mankind in general as "a tool to ward off the blows of fate." Such a precious gift should be known and used!

And so, here and on my LiveJournal account, I have endeavored to share what I have gleaned from my studies- always with an eye toward protective magic, and whatever I thought was "harmless" magic. I have restricted what things I will share in various ways- LJ has the ability to set different security levels for different posts, and here I just filter everything for public viewing. I try to share only those things which I could not conceive of a way to abuse- but as my room mate and fellow Gaian has pointed out to me, I'm not very imaginative on that score.^_^'

So how do we know what to share, and when? How should we filter our discussions? And if we chose to share magical information publically, how can we take responsibility for its eventual abuse?  

[emmfullness]

Hmm...This is a good question. I think filters definately are needed. Just letting anyone have their hands on some information can be very dangerous. So, perhaps sharing of anything that can be used for reasons you don't want it to shouldn't be done unless you're personally assured of that person's maturity and intension. This is probably something that each person will have to define for themselves and that we'll have to trust people to use their common sense when dealing with the matter. Personally, I'd appreciate someone not telling me anything that can be horribly messed up and result in a lot of bad outcomes. I'd rather they wait and let me know when I'm ready to handle it.  

[MST3Kakalina]

my philosophy is that each person is ultimately responsible for their own actions. i have no qualms discussing anything here, because it is up to the person readingthe posts to choose to use the information the poster imparts.

the fact that i rarely have anything to share is more indicative of the fact that i don't really know a lot than fear of moral responsibility or ethical retribution.  

[WebenBanu]

MST3Kakalina

my philosophy is that each person is ultimately responsible for their own actions. i have no qualms discussing anything here, because it is up to the person readingthe posts to choose to use the information the poster imparts.

Would you feel the same way if we were passing out something more tangible- like guns, perhaps? Let's say that you decided to take your bushel full of loaded guns and just leave it out on the street corner one night- would you feel no responsibility at all for the people who were shot as a result? For the crimes that were commited because people had access to your guns? sad

MST3Kakalina

the fact that i rarely have anything to share is more indicative of the fact that i don't really know a lot than fear of moral responsibility or ethical retribution.

I'm not saying that I'm some kind of respository for all kinds of magical secrets, either.^_^' I know some things, and I don't know a whole lot more. I don't want to imply anything about anyone's level of knowledge, including my own- right now I am concerned with the ethics of open instruction, itself.

I am completely unconcerned with retribution of any sort, here- and perhaps my statement to that effect was not clearly written. What I had hoped to express in that, however, was that I am not concerned with laws of punishment or ill returns- everybody has their own system and they can feel free to peg whatever cosmic backlash they want onto the action, or none at all. What I want to get at here is an ethically right and proper action- not because of punishment or reward, but because it's the right thing to do. You know?^_^  

[TheDisreputableDog]

"All knowledge is worth having," perhaps? Or instead "curiosity killed the cat" and "the man who knew too much"? I don't know. I think one must be responsible in some way for the ripples one creates. Not the threefold thing though. At the same time, how to use that responsibility is up to the individual. The gods, however, are kind of unpredictable... "Not a tame lion" if you will. >_>; Skhmt certainly ain't.  

[MST3Kakalina]

WebenBanu

Would you feel the same way if we were passing out something more tangible- like guns, perhaps? Let's say that you decided to take your bushel full of loaded guns and just leave it out on the street corner one night- would you feel no responsibility at all for the people who were shot as a result? For the crimes that were commited because people had access to your guns? sad

1. this is assuming, of course, that people were actually shot. wink

2. there is a difference, in my opinion, between magic and a gun. a gun, its inner mechanisms aside, is a simple instrument. it is designed to do physical harm, which may or may not include death. you shoot the gun, the bullet goes and hits the intended target (if your aim is decent). worst comes to worst, you pistol whip 'em.

magic, though, is subtle and complicated and intangible. there are many more factors that go into, say, smiting someone than shooting them with a gun--crafting the spell properly so that it will do as intended, raising the proper energy, focus, the "resistance" of the way of things (by this i mean how contrary it is to that towards which the universe is already tending--a smack addict is more likely to ******** up and die than someone who's in sound mind and health), etc.

so for that to be anywhere near as effective as a gun, you'd have to be a competent magic-worker to begin with. and if you're a competent magic-worker, then you already know what you need to know.

Quote:

I am completely unconcerned with retribution of any sort, here- and perhaps my statement to that effect was not clearly written. What I had hoped to express in that, however, was that I am not concerned with laws of punishment or ill returns- everybody has their own system and they can feel free to peg whatever cosmic backlash they want onto the action, or none at all. What I want to get at here is an ethically right and proper action- not because of punishment or reward, but because it's the right thing to do. You know?^_^

yes, i guess "ethical retribution" was a rather awkward term to use. i meant to imply that i would feel no moral responsibility (as in punishment from some law of returns, because i don't believe in that) or any ethical...something. i mean i don't think there ARE any ethics to discuss when it comes to internet magic discussion. magic is effective, sure, but sharing spells isn't the same as handing out the instructions for a pipe bomb.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

WebenBanu

I am completely unconcerned with retribution of any sort, here- and perhaps my statement to that effect was not clearly written. What I had hoped to express in that, however, was that I am not concerned with laws of punishment or ill returns- everybody has their own system and they can feel free to peg whatever cosmic backlash they want onto the action, or none at all. What I want to get at here is an ethically right and proper action- not because of punishment or reward, but because it's the right thing to do. You know?^_^

Mmmm, karma yoga. Doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, not out of fear of punishment or desire for reward.  

[SlaineWildfire]

The way I see it is that there is free will in this world, and therefore every individual is responsible for how he or she acts. The workers in factories who make bottles are not responsible for someone who goes out and turns that bottle into a Molotov Cocktail, and those of us who responsibly talk about magic for our own information and edification cannot be held responsible for those who use information to hurt others or themselves.

It is this view that leads me to believe that the internet is a place to gather information of all kinds and this information should not be censored. Just because I can discover how to make a bomb on the internet doesn't mean I should run right out and make one, nor does it mean that the person who put the information online is responsible if I go out and make one.

The internet exists to put information in people's hands that they otherwise would not have had. It does not exist to decide who gets what information, when, and under what circumstances.  

[Jasta]

I have to say, these days, the internet is so chocabloc with information and misinformation, that thousands of people daily probably get their hands on magickal techniques that they don't need and shouldn't have... And while we shouldn't contribute to that, we should also bear in mind that if they don't find it discussed responsibly here, they'll find it shoved elsewhere, with no explanation or idea of the potential of that technique.

It's a bit like drugs - you can choose not to talk about it at all, and have your kids learn about it from the dealer down the road, or you can discuss it responsibly and make sure a person knows as much as possible about it. Then if they do do something stupid, well, it's not because they were ignorant of the consequences, and it falls onto their own head.  

[Starlock]

Consider too, that just because you have your hands on a spell that has worked for someone else does not mean it will work for you. While I personally doubt I would post such things online, if others do, that's fine with me. As with all things, they should bear in mind how their actions can influence others... that to me isthe larger part of taking responsibility that people seem to miss noting.  

[Something to Replace]

I usaully only answer questions, give opinions, share something funny, or type something up that people seem to be confused by. I never post my magickal name or what spells I've done; I know alot of people like to brag but I believe that takes the spirituality out of it and it's also not polite in some (and many) scenerios. smile  

[Jasta]

Quote:

I never post my magickal name or what spells I've done; I know alot of people like to brag but I believe that takes the spirituality out of it

I am glad to meet another person who doesn't tell the world their magickal name..!  

[TeaDidikai]

WebenBanu

Whenever you train a person in- or even expose a person to- a technique (really, any sort of technique, but here we'll talk about specifically magical ones), you become partially responsible for anything that they do with it. -snip-
So how do we know what to share, and when? How should we filter our discussions? And if we chose to share magical information publically, how can we take responsibility for its eventual abuse?

Thanks Weben. You've pretty much summed up the reason I'm not a teacher of anything but Reiki.

Personally, aside from minor tips I have come across, I don't share a lot of info. PMs are different, but that's just me. This attitude you speak of comes to a lot of people the longer they have been part of the Pagan scene- or is infused within the first few weeks of working in an Occult Shop.  

[WebenBanu]

TheDisreputableDog

I think one must be responsible in some way for the ripples one creates. Not the threefold thing though. At the same time, how to use that responsibility is up to the individual. The gods, however, are kind of unpredictable... "Not a tame lion" if you will. >_>; Skhmt certainly ain't.

I agree with you- both on the part about responsibilities and ripples, and on Skhmt's untamable nature.^_~ And on the threefold law, btw- but that's a subject for another thread, which has probably been done to death. blaugh The gods are predictable in certain respects, however- one being that They love ma'at, and acting in accord with personal responsibility is definitely a part of ma'at.

To a certain point, how to use one's personal responsibility is up to the individual- but only to a certain point. If one choses to use one's personal responsibility in such a way that they hand over a loaded gun to a child or a person who is mentally unstable, can we still say that it's an entirely personal decision?  

[WebenBanu]

MST3Kakalina

1. this is assuming, of course, that people were actually shot. wink

Ah, but you seem to be assuming that they won't be. Which assumption is more costly?^_^

MST3Kakalina

2. there is a difference, in my opinion, between magic and a gun. a gun, its inner mechanisms aside, is a simple instrument. ...snip... magic, though, is subtle and complicated and intangible. there are many more factors that go into, say, smiting someone than shooting them with a gun... snip... so for that to be anywhere near as effective as a gun, you'd have to be a competent magic-worker to begin with. and if you're a competent magic-worker, then you already know what you need to know.

Actually, I think it's a pretty fair analogy in that neither one of them was meant to do harm- guns are supposed to be protective and/or tools with which to hunt food, after all, and not used to hold up banks or mug people- and either one of them in the hands of a novice can be dangerous. Magic, in my experience, isn't so convenient that it either does exactly what you want it to do or fizzles out harmlessly. A spell can misfire, just as surely as a gun can, and if it was the case that anyone who was capable of using the instructions which people posted on the internet already had them, then what would be the point of posting them to begin with? Clearly these instructions are here to teach, and they do so- a novice who happens upon step by step instructions for, oh- let's just say creating a Servitor^_^', can print them out and pull out something Servitorish to do whatever she wishes- like terrorizing that nasty girl on the bus who called her bad names with nightmares, so that she can't sleep at night and fails her exams.

In this case, the person who posted those instructions is responsible for putting them up where they could be accessed by someone who was clearly not mature enough to handle the information, but who nonetheless managed to follow the directions and implement the technique toward unethical ends. He is in part responsible, then, through his own choices and actions, for the emotional and academic trauma which were inflicted upon the girl in the bus- and creating such an experience which may well build up to even bigger and worse problems through the course of that girl's lifetime.

The internet is a public service- even more public than preaching on the sidewalks, in fact. And it is a known fact that not everyone in the world has the maturity and stability with which to deal with this information in an appropriate manner. Therefore, anyone who posts such detailed, sensitive, and potentially dangerous information does so knowing that it can easily be accessed by people who should not have it- and this is where ethics and personal responsibility come in.

MST3Kakalina

i mean i don't think there ARE any ethics to discuss when it comes to internet magic discussion. magic is effective, sure, but sharing spells isn't the same as handing out the instructions for a pipe bomb.

It's exactly the same, actually.^_^ Magic is just as effective as a pipe bomb, and just as easily abused. If someone isn't skilled at magic then that doesn't mean that they're incapable of it- it just means that they can't control it very well, and that simply makes it all the more dangerous. Spells can misfire and backfire just like guns, can miss their mark, and can be used perfectly well but for unethical ends. If you place the weapon in someone's hands- whatever it is, and whatever your intentions were when you did so- you are responsible for your choice and your action in doing so. I'm afraid there's just no way out of it.