Curses and Healing

[midara the happy banshee]

I was recently looking back through past threads and came upon Tea's curse thread, and it got me thinking.
Most of the people in the thread who felt strongly against curses felt that it was not their place to judge others and cause them harm. But then I thought, what about healing? I would venture a guess that most pagans have no moral code against healing. But why? Why is it that someone could judge someone worthy of life and happiness but not of harm? Aren't these things two sides of the same coin? And going even further, doesn't all magic stem from the practicioner's judgement? Is it that the practicioner feels that they may trust their judgement in nudging and shaping the universe except for when it comes to harming others? Why is a curse any harder to make a judgement about than healing?
I'd really love to hear opinions on this, and to get a better grasp of everyone's morality.  

[Starlock]

Curse thread? I must have missed that one... or I don't remember it. Either way, I'm not against curses because I think nobody has the place to judge others (hell, we shouldn't kid ourselves... we judge people all the time, consciously or not) but simply because it does harm in a very direct way. As far as healing goes, I won't do that either unless I get the consent of the person in need. Sometimes its better to let things run their course instead of meddle with Gaia. Life and death are ultimately of equal value, but humanity has a far greater fear of loss; that drives a wish for long life and immortality so nobody questions judgement of worth for healing. They should, really. Prolonging a life that would have ended otherwise can have harmful consequences. Get cured of cancer one year to loose one's mind to Alzhimers the next... is that really all that helpful?

In the end you're exactly right that it all stems from the practitioner's own judgement. People have their own standards they use to guide their actions and different paradigms that shape the lenses through which they see the world. Everybody single thing in this universe causes changes in things around it; you can't help but to nudge and change the universe. People address that ability in different ways; some people do not believe in it, others develop moral codes of action, others just do as they do. In the end that really is all we can do... just do as we do and expect the same of others.

Not sure if any of that makes any sense. While philosophically I'm not a believer in rightness or wrongness of any sort of action, object, cognition, etc... in life, I do as I do and uphold a code of honor of 'goodness' that I believe in. Is it really good? Who knows. I simply do as I do... trust myself... and deal with/adjust to the consequences that follow. Virtually everything one does causes both harm and healing.  

[midara the happy banshee]

Starlock

Curse thread? I must have missed that one... or I don't remember it. Either way, I'm not against curses because I think nobody has the place to judge others (hell, we shouldn't kid ourselves... we judge people all the time, consciously or not) but simply because it does harm in a very direct way. As far as healing goes, I won't do that either unless I get the consent of the person in need.

So it's almost like a consent thing? No one's going to consent to being cursed, but they may consent to healing. And of course I understand the reluctance to knowingly do direct harm. By the way, I love your admittance of judgment. The fact is that we all judge, and a lot of the time our judgment does harm, but that's no reason to stop. Judgement is necessary, and helps us to define and assess our surroundings. The most we can strive for is to be fair and objective in our judgments and to realize that our perspective is just that: our own.

Starlock

Sometimes its better to let things run their course instead of meddle with Gaia. Life and death are ultimately of equal value, but humanity has a far greater fear of loss; that drives a wish for long life and immortality so nobody questions judgement of worth for healing. They should, really. Prolonging a life that would have ended otherwise can have harmful consequences. Get cured of cancer one year to loose one's mind to Alzhimers the next... is that really all that helpful?

I agree. That's why I feel very safe doing my magic under the supervision of the Gods. I generally put a lot of energy into an outcome, but then make it very clear that I know their judgement is far superior to mine, and that the end result is really up to them. The Gods may be able to see the eventual onset of Alzheimer's and prevent the healing, while if it were up to me that wouldn't be the case.

Starlock

In the end you're exactly right that it all stems from the practitioner's own judgement. People have their own standards they use to guide their actions and different paradigms that shape the lenses through which they see the world. Everybody single thing in this universe causes changes in things around it; you can't help but to nudge and change the universe. People address that ability in different ways; some people do not believe in it, others develop moral codes of action, others just do as they do. In the end that really is all we can do... just do as we do and expect the same of others.

Entirely agreed.

Starlock

Not sure if any of that makes any sense. While philosophically I'm not a believer in rightness or wrongness of any sort of action, object, cognition, etc... in life, I do as I do and uphold a code of honor of 'goodness' that I believe in. Is it really good? Who knows. I simply do as I do... trust myself... and deal with/adjust to the consequences that follow. Virtually everything one does causes both harm and healing.

Thanks for your answer, Starlock. It was exactly what I wanted.  

[TeaDidikai]

For me, consent need not apply. Period.

My guide is based upon a rational decision making process and my job to fulfill my path.

Our of curtsy I will sometimes ask someone if they would like my help, but I would not hesitate to act should I feel action was needed.

With healing- I take an approach that is related to Reiki- Within Reiki, the use of the energy can "accidentally" hurt individuals. If someone is terminal, then Reiki might send them on to their passing. Not going to do that to someone without them asking me to- also, Reiki off the cuff with folks who may be on lifestyle medications is a bad idea. So- yeah. I ask.

I have used Reiki on people without their permission before. One woman had done a little too much acid and was having a really bad trip and was violent. Again, action was needed for my safety as well as hers and I did not give it a second thought.  

[CuAnnan]

I have cursed people before and, in all likelihood, will do so again.

I believe, in every case, I have acted wrongly. I make no attempt to morally justify my actions because, at the end of the day, the only beings I have to account myself personally to are the Gods. If they have found me to have acted improperly, they will deal with me appropriately. I realise this leaves me open to the "arrogance of all time" issue but I have a strong friend base who keep me on track.  

[TatteredAngel]

I make judgements all the time. Curses aren't my thing, for a variety of reasons, and so it usually isn't an issue for me. I look at it the same way I look at physical solutions- healing, or trying to heal, is for me a moral imperative. I may not be good at it, but any bit of help I can give contributes to something. If it's putting gauze over a gash that will still need to be stitched, at least I did something that contributes to the overall benefit. However, doing damage is trickier, and more likely to backfire. If I think someone ought to be punched out, kicking them in the shins is not going to make it any more likely. Someone who's been purposefully injured, by physical means or otherwise, is also likely to lash out. More chances of people getting hurt.

In my personal world, attempt at healing is a moral imperative. Hurt is shakier ground. If I'm going to hurt someone in any way, I had better make sure not only that I think they truly deserve it- but also that what I do is not going to make the situation worse for everyone involved, that my skill is enough to actually accomplish what I'm trying to do. With curses, it isn't. I'm perfectly aware of that, and content to leave them alone.  

[kara_h]

At a minimum, I see the healer needs to get the permission of the person to be healed. Ideally, they come to the healer, but it may not occur to them that anyone other than a medical doctor can help.

What I do, absent a request from someone, is make the energy and/or strength available. They are free to do what they want with it or even ignore it. By way of analogy, it is the difference between setting up a table with candy in a room that people are free to take from vs force feeding it to everyone you see. Okay, fine, it is candy, so what is the big deal other than being annoying? What if the person is a diabetic?

In Reiki there is the dictate to have an exchange take place. Part of this is to have the healee see it as valuable ("well, I paid good money for this so it MUST be good") and partly to seperate the healer from the healee so the healer is not responsible for future actions on the part of the healee.

Of course, the actual exchange may vary. With a complete stranger you may say "my fee is xyz", but if you were, say, going in to court and your lawyer was feeling a bit ill you might see it as being helpfull to you if she does NOT throw up in front of the judge!

In any case, whether it be cursing or healing, the other person's free will is of prime importance. The only variance to this I would possibly accept is doing healing for someone you were already responsible for.

Not everyone has this view though. I once forced myself to read one Z Budapest's books (under the logic of 'know your enemy'). I was shocked when she started saying the details of curses in an intro book for her tradition and never once touched on morals.  

[LadyEladrin]

TeaDidikai

With healing- I take an approach that is related to Reiki- Within Reiki, the use of the energy can "accidentally" hurt individuals.

You know way more about Reiki than I do, but I have to ask; how could Reiki hurt someone? From what I"ve studied and heard from other practitioners, it's impossible to hurt someone with it. Maybe we could keep talking about this in the actual Reiki thread here? (I think there is one.) I'd like to learn a bit more about that.

As for the whole healing issue at hand, I'll ask permission before I try to help anyone out when it comes to using energy work/spells. It's similar to the DNR card I keep in my wallet. If I die on the table or on the way to the hospital, do not ressucitate. I'd hope that people would respect my wishes and let me go, as my time has come. If I offered to do a healing work for someone who didn't want it, I wouldn't do it. I have to respect that person's wishes, even if I think its' wrong. I have to honour them for where they're at in their life.  

[Lila Malvae]

I have cursed before. I was lucky enough not to see the outcome, however. I still believe it is wrong for me to have done so. But healing? Never. Magic is the manipulation of possibility, not domination over the will of the Fates. I know that I would not dare challenge them, were that the case. Healing, I believe, is like medicine. You can still die while having superb medical care. Healing is no different-- if it is to be, then it is written in stone. Healing can ease the transition between states of being. What is the difference between dis ease and disease? I believe that healing magic is like medicine-- a supplement to your body's own natural defenses. What will be will be, but the transition can be eased. I do not believe that healing magic has the same negative connotations as cursing.
A hex*, as I've known it, leaves a way for it's victim to escape it. A sort of If-then equation. "If you continue to do this deed (or to not do it), then this bad thing will happen to you and yours and so on." A curse, such as a blood curse or death curse, leaves no escape for its victim. "You will suffer as I have suffered, and all of your line will bear it's mark for as long as they shall draw breath or walk upon the earth, and all who witness shall identify this mark as unclean, and so shall your blood be cursed."
Let me propose this, however, on the flip side. A woman is raped and her children slaughtered before her very eyes. The very walls of her house are painted in blood, and ache with the screams of the dying. She is beaten to death, and with her last breath she lays a curse upon those who have committed wickedness against her and her family, and she dies not a moment after the last of her curse is uttered. Can you tell her that she was wrong? There is a reason for curses to exist. Surely, those wicked people shall receive their just end, but can you tell that woman that it is not her right to deliver it?

Curses should be used responsibly, not given out for minor transgressions, no matter how bitter you may be. It is a more powerful thing to forgive.



* I know that "hex" refers to the seals of Solomon and their tendency to include a hexagram, but "hex" in this case, refers to minor curses with an escape route. It may be a widely-used term or one that my local group uses, I'm not sure, but I thought I would explain it before a bunch of people harass me about it.  

[TeaDidikai]

kara_h

In Reiki there is the dictate to have an exchange take place. Part of this is to have the healee see it as valuable ("well, I paid good money for this so it MUST be good") and partly to seperate the healer from the healee so the healer is not responsible for future actions on the part of the healee.

What tradition of Reiki is that in?!?

That makes no sense to me.

EladrinStarmist

TeaDidikai

With healing- I take an approach that is related to Reiki- Within Reiki, the use of the energy can "accidentally" hurt individuals.

You know way more about Reiki than I do, but I have to ask; how could Reiki hurt someone? From what I"ve studied and heard from other practitioners, it's impossible to hurt someone with it. Maybe we could keep talking about this in the actual Reiki thread here? (I think there is one.) I'd like to learn a bit more about that.

As for the whole healing issue at hand, I'll ask permission before I try to help anyone out when it comes to using energy work/spells. It's similar to the DNR card I keep in my wallet. If I die on the table or on the way to the hospital, do not ressucitate. I'd hope that people would respect my wishes and let me go, as my time has come. If I offered to do a healing work for someone who didn't want it, I wouldn't do it. I have to respect that person's wishes, even if I think its' wrong. I have to honour them for where they're at in their life.

Sure. I'll make the topic since I can't find it here already.  

[kara_h]

TeaDidikai

kara_h

In Reiki there is the dictate to have an exchange take place. Part of this is to have the healee see it as valuable ("well, I paid good money for this so it MUST be good") and partly to seperate the healer from the healee so the healer is not responsible for future actions on the part of the healee.

What tradition of Reiki is that in?!?

That makes no sense to me.

Usui Reiki (not Usui Traditional Reiki ... we are given a copy of Diane Stein's book when we do Reiki 1)

True, an exchange is not part of the usually held values, however it was one held by Takata. My teacher incorporated it into hers as well and I can see the logic for including it. There are other points for it too, but I listed some of the main ones.  

[[.dances.with.bunnies.]]

I was doing a protection spell on someone, but I asked if I could. O_o  

[TeaDidikai]

kara_h

Usui Reiki (not Usui Traditional Reiki ... we are given a copy of Diane Stein's book when we do Reiki 1)

Could you pass me your lineage? Here or in PMs?

Quote:

True, an exchange is not part of the usually held values, however it was one held by Takata. My teacher incorporated it into hers as well and I can see the logic for including it. There are other points for it too, but I listed some of the main ones.

Takata? I thought that was on Faramoto.
(to be honest, the application of it to treatments over initiations sounds like some "interesting" neo-pagan twists)  

[kara_h]

TeaDidikai

Takata? I thought that was on Faramoto.
(to be honest, the application of it to treatments over initiations sounds like some "interesting" neo-pagan twists)

Seeing as neither was directly instructing me, about the only thing of importance to me was that MY teacher conveyed that. smile I assume it came from when Takata first started doing Reiki for free and then had people complaining afterwards.  

[TeaDidikai]

kara_h

TeaDidikai

Takata? I thought that was on Faramoto.
(to be honest, the application of it to treatments over initiations sounds like some "interesting" neo-pagan twists)

Seeing as neither was directly instructing me, about the only thing of importance to me was that MY teacher conveyed that. smile I assume it came from when Takata first started doing Reiki for free and then had people complaining afterwards.

Could you cite something for me?

I've never heard of this. I knew she was part of Dr. Usui's Clinic, but I never heard anything about her working for free.