culture rape?

[whiporwill-o]

ok, i know what culture rape is, but what i dont know is how to know what is proper.

my favorite holidays/celebrations are halloween and christmas, they always have been, but i find that the rituals and commonly spread beliefs about samhain and yule are cosidered culture rape. is there a place online or is there anyone on here that can explain to me what exactly the REAL purposes of these sabbats are?

even after trying to learn all of this stuff for five years i find myself back at square one and i feel that i can't trust anything i read in books or online and yet i still have some difficulty with certain things (none comes to mind atm) because i don't have a set religion, so i will not hve all of the same views as everyone else here. i just need help *head desk*.  

[TeaDidikai]

whiporwill-o

my favorite holidays/celebrations are halloween and christmas, they always have been, but i find that the rituals and commonly spread beliefs about samhain and yule are cosidered culture rape.

Yule less so than Samhain, mostly because the Norse are an open culture. That said, calling something that isn't Yule Yule in order to lend authority to it under the auspic of it being traditional is fallacious at best, a lie at worst.

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is there a place online or is there anyone on here that can explain to me what exactly the REAL purposes of these sabbats are?

Problem. The concept of the Sabbats as outlined within Wica are not those present in Eclectic Neo-Paganism, nor are they what is present in the cultures of origin.

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i just need help *head desk*.

Why look to generic paganism for their holidays before you have a path that will bring holidays with it?  

[whiporwill-o]

TeaDidikai

Why look to generic paganism for their holidays before you have a path that will bring holidays with it?

ok. i love halloween and what it is in the US, the decorations, the games, the treats, the costumes, it's GREAT! but at the same time i really like the idea of the honoring one's ancestors and the like and i don't really know what throws both of those together into just one name. i guess that part doesn't really matter, but i do still want to know what is correct and what is a pile of crap. if one remains ignorant then all s/he spreads is ignorance.  

[TeaDidikai]

whiporwill-o

ok. i love halloween and what it is in the US, the decorations, the games, the treats, the costumes, it's GREAT!

Awesome. It's completely possible to have cultural secular holidays.

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but at the same time i really like the idea of the honoring one's ancestors and the like

Now might be a good time to point out that not all Ancestor Feasts are held on Oct 31st... come of think of it, even Samhain isn't held on that day.

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and i don't really know what throws both of those together into just one name. i guess that part doesn't really matter, but i do still want to know what is correct and what is a pile of crap. if one remains ignorant then all s/he spreads is ignorance.

True enough.

Let's see... maybe I could pull up my old Halloween is not A Pagan Holiday thread.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

whiporwill-o

TeaDidikai

Why look to generic paganism for their holidays before you have a path that will bring holidays with it?

ok. i love halloween and what it is in the US, the decorations, the games, the treats, the costumes, it's GREAT! but at the same time i really like the idea of the honoring one's ancestors and the like and i don't really know what throws both of those together into just one name. i guess that part doesn't really matter, but i do still want to know what is correct and what is a pile of crap. if one remains ignorant then all s/he spreads is ignorance.

If you like the combination, you could always make it a personal tradition to honor your ancestors at Halloween-time, and just not call it "Samhain." Call it Halloween and decide that Halloween is a time to do a feast for the dead or whatever it is you want to do, or make a new holiday that mixes together candy, costumes, and ancestor reverence.

Creation of new holidays and personal traditions can be fun, and sometimes more effective if you don't have anything that resonates on that point in the tradition/culture you grew up in and don't want to mine closed cultures.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

whiporwill-o

TeaDidikai

Why look to generic paganism for their holidays before you have a path that will bring holidays with it?

ok. i love halloween and what it is in the US, the decorations, the games, the treats, the costumes, it's GREAT! but at the same time i really like the idea of the honoring one's ancestors and the like and i don't really know what throws both of those together into just one name. i guess that part doesn't really matter, but i do still want to know what is correct and what is a pile of crap. if one remains ignorant then all s/he spreads is ignorance.

If you like the combination, you could always make it a personal tradition to honor your ancestors at Halloween-time, and just not call it "Samhain." Call it Halloween and decide that Halloween is a time to do a feast for the dead or whatever it is you want to do, or make a new holiday that mixes together candy, costumes, and ancestor reverence.

Creation of new holidays and personal traditions can be fun, and sometimes more effective if you don't have anything that resonates on that point in the tradition/culture you grew up in and don't want to mine closed cultures.

There is also the question of how much do you want to mix your Christendom and your paganism. wink  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

There is also the question of how much do you want to mix your Christendom and your paganism. wink

Kind of unavoidable for me, I guess, even though I've never been Christian. UUs still make use of a lot of Christian stuff, even though UU hasn't been specifically Christian for awhile now—at least, that has been my experience in my churches. Most ministers I know acquired their training at predominantly Christian-focused theological schools, I studied the Bible in several religious education classes... Most of the books we studied that weren't the Bible were secular, like The Giver and Walden. Which is still all in keeping with UU philosophy and Sources in general, and avoids some of the cultural appropriation minefields UUs are so apt to blunder into. But it still weirds me out to be all "we're not actually Christian but the Bible is really important to us." Not that having the Bible be important is a bad thing necessarily...but I feel like UU lots of times ends up in this quagmire of hollow intellectualism and postmodern relativism and suspect cultural borrowing.

Anyway, this whole sidetrack started out because the thought crossed my mind that, despite not having an intentionally Christian upbringing, I still have this knee-jerk sense of God as "up." Some of my gods are "up," sure, but there's quite a number that are "down" as well—as if up and down were sensical directions in the first place, and even then only some of my gods are invested in particular locations, and even those gods are only partly "what" They "are" and partly "outside" entirely. And almost every eclectic neopagan ritual I attend leaves me feeling like I'm standing on my head even so.

Sigh. Brain breakage can be good for the soul, I suppose. Sorry for hijacking the thread. razz  

[too2sweet]

I actually honor my ancestors (mother figures in particular) at Lughnasadh, though there is a personal reason why it makes sense for me to do so at that time.

I think it's hard, because we get caught up in using the terms that we learned first, only to find out later that they might not be all that appropriate, but then we don't know what else to call them.  

[scorplett]

too2sweet

I actually honor my ancestors (mother figures in particular) at Lughnasadh, though there is a personal reason why it makes sense for me to do so at that time.

I think it's hard, because we get caught up in using the terms that we learned first, only to find out later that they might not be all that appropriate, but then we don't know what else to call them.

That would be quite consistent with the mytho-history of the origins of Lughnasadh to be honest. And considering that the woman in question was not one of the Dé d'Anann, then I don't see nearly as much problems there are there can be with a whole heap of other 'celtic' practices.

In this instance it depends on what you call honoring. Honoring of ancestors can be done at any time, some times are more special to a person than others. The Samhain ancestor thing, is for metaphysical reasons mostly, metaphysical reasons which are unclear outside of context as to their existence.  

[too2sweet]

My mother, mother-in-law and mom's best friend (who was like 2nd mother to me) all passed away in the month of August, so I usually take the time to honor them and their memories (and others who have passed on to a lesser degree). I really want it to be a celebration of their lives, but it still ends up being a cry-fest at the moment, but it's something to strive for anyways.  

[scorplett]

too2sweet

My mother, mother-in-law and mom's best friend (who was like 2nd mother to me) all passed away in the month of August, so I usually take the time to honor them and their memories (and others who have passed on to a lesser degree). I really want it to be a celebration of their lives, but it still ends up being a cry-fest at the moment, but it's something to strive for anyways.

*hugs*
Grief is tough...

I wish you whatever it is that you need, be it laughing or crying, strength or weakness.

*hugs*  

[too2sweet]

Thanks!! I needed that! heart heart  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

Kind of unavoidable for me, I guess, even though I've never been Christian. UUs still make use of a lot of Christian stuff, even though UU hasn't been specifically Christian for awhile now—at least, that has been my experience in my churches. Most ministers I know acquired their training at predominantly Christian-focused theological schools, I studied the Bible in several religious education classes... Most of the books we studied that weren't the Bible were secular, like The Giver and Walden. Which is still all in keeping with UU philosophy and Sources in general, and avoids some of the cultural appropriation minefields UUs are so apt to blunder into. But it still weirds me out to be all "we're not actually Christian but the Bible is really important to us." Not that having the Bible be important is a bad thing necessarily...but I feel like UU lots of times ends up in this quagmire of hollow intellectualism and postmodern relativism and suspect cultural borrowing.

That is a distinct issue they suffer from. Some of it goes so far as to indulge racism, but that's because the UU isn't designed in a way it can actually prevent it.

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Anyway, this whole sidetrack started out because the thought crossed my mind that, despite not having an intentionally Christian upbringing, I still have this knee-jerk sense of God as "up." Some of my gods are "up," sure, but there's quite a number that are "down" as well—as if up and down were sensical directions in the first place, and even then only some of my gods are invested in particular locations, and even those gods are only partly "what" They "are" and partly "outside" entirely. And almost every eclectic neopagan ritual I attend leaves me feeling like I'm standing on my head even so.

I can get that. Hell, I've had that experience as well.

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Sigh. Brain breakage can be good for the soul, I suppose. Sorry for hijacking the thread. razz

No hijacking involved. wink  

[Deoridhe]

whiporwill-o

my favorite holidays/celebrations are halloween and christmas, they always have been, but i find that the rituals and commonly spread beliefs about samhain and yule are cosidered culture rape. is there a place online or is there anyone on here that can explain to me what exactly the REAL purposes of these sabbats are?

By the way, Yule is not a shabbat, and as far as I know neither is Samhain (I am much less well read on the latter).

Ironically, shabbat is a Jewish term. The roots of neo-paganism are fed at the wells of Christianity and Judaism a lot more than people like to accept, I've found.

That being said, by all means keep the secular holidays. Yes, they're a mishmash of older stuff, but by and large it's not a mishmash claiming to be anything other than what it is until you get neopaganism or Evangelical Christianity involved.  

[whiporwill-o]

Deoridhe

whiporwill-o

my favorite holidays/celebrations are halloween and christmas, they always have been, but i find that the rituals and commonly spread beliefs about samhain and yule are cosidered culture rape. is there a place online or is there anyone on here that can explain to me what exactly the REAL purposes of these sabbats are?

By the way, Yule is not a shabbat, and as far as I know neither is Samhain (I am much less well read on the latter).

Ironically, shabbat is a Jewish term. The roots of neo-paganism are fed at the wells of Christianity and Judaism a lot more than people like to accept, I've found.

That being said, by all means keep the secular holidays. Yes, they're a mishmash of older stuff, but by and large it's not a mishmash claiming to be anything other than what it is until you get neopaganism or Evangelical Christianity involved.

yet another thing that was never told to me before gonk . every book and every website that i have ever looked at has refered to the 8 sabbats (samhain being a major one and yule being a minor one) and 13 esbats (which i personally do not "celebrate" any more than just staring at the moon and thats just because it's beautiful), but i suppose most of the easily available "knowledge" is all wiccan-flavored, which i do not wish to take as my religion.

back on the subject of halloween specifically, i have always read (even before i became a witch) that it was the night when the spirits roamed in our world and so it is the perfect night for communicating with and honoring one's ancestors (please correc me if i am wrong).