Incest: Is It A Sin?

[Grilled Cheese]

I'm just wondering because the laws of the Old Testament say that it's wrong, but Jesus said that we didn't have to follow those rules after he came to Earth. And, unless I'm mistaken, the Old Testament never condemns marriage between cousins, so is that alright?

Sorry if this has been covered before - I looked, but couldn't find any similar threads.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Sin or not, it's a danger to possible offspring, as inbreding increases risks of birth defects.


I think the question of "Sin" becomes irrelevent when there are other bid "DON'T DO IT" signs all around on.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

LEV 18:6

"'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD."

In fact, Leviticus 18 has a list of people related to you (either by blood or marriage) that you're not supposed to be sleeping with. The list goes on all the way down to about verse 23.

I suppose at the time of Moses, the gene pool had been sufficiently warped enough to warn against further polluting it, for reasons already mentioned. Jesus said that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). God has repealed (so to speak) certain OT laws, such as the ban on clean and unclean foods, because the times and circumstances have changed. Food was being cooked better, preparations weren't as dirty, and the people had better immune systems after generation upon generation of immunities being passed down. The danger of pork and shellfish has passed.

Not so with incest. If anything, the danger has grown. Why then, would that OT law not still be binding?  

[Grilled Cheese]

Matt Pniewski

Sin or not, it's a danger to possible offspring, as inbreding increases risks of birth defects.


I think the question of "Sin" becomes irrelevent when there are other bid "DON'T DO IT" signs all around on.

I understand that point, but you could make the same argument for hemophiliacs and people with other genetic disorders. And reproduction between cousins has only a slightly higher risk for genetic defects than reproduction between two completely unrelated people.

@ The Amazing Ryuu: Thanks for the info. That makes total sense. The one thing that bothers me is that, as far as I know there aren't any specifications in the Bible as to which laws are kept and which are repealed. What prevents it from becoming completely subjective?

Another question: if contraception worked perfectly, would that make incest okay? (Mind you, I'm playing the devil's advocate here more than anything else.)


Thanks for the responses, guys. I find your information highly interesting.  

[Matt Pniewski]

Grilled Cheese

Matt Pniewski

Sin or not, it's a danger to possible offspring, as inbreding increases risks of birth defects.


I think the question of "Sin" becomes irrelevent when there are other bid "DON'T DO IT" signs all around on.

I understand that point, but you could make the same argument for hemophiliacs and people with other genetic disorders. And reproduction between cousins has only a slightly higher risk for genetic defects than reproduction between two completely unrelated people.

You are talking about something different. You can't change having a genetic disorder. You can choose to have relations with family members.

I don't care if it's only a "slightly" higher risk, it's a big "Do not do it." It's asking for trouble.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Grilled Cheese

And reproduction between cousins has only a slightly higher risk for genetic defects than reproduction between two completely unrelated people.

"It is also said, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" --Luke 4:12

Grilled Cheese

The one thing that bothers me is that, as far as I know there aren't any specifications in the Bible as to which laws are kept and which are repealed. What prevents it from becoming completely subjective?

To be completely honest, it requires a lot of cross-referencing. Most people just either aren't interested or aren't willing to do the work.  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

Grilled Cheese

Matt Pniewski

Sin or not, it's a danger to possible offspring, as inbreding increases risks of birth defects.


I think the question of "Sin" becomes irrelevent when there are other bid "DON'T DO IT" signs all around on.

I understand that point, but you could make the same argument for hemophiliacs and people with other genetic disorders. And reproduction between cousins has only a slightly higher risk for genetic defects than reproduction between two completely unrelated people.

You are talking about something different. You can't change having a genetic disorder. You can choose to have relations with family members.

I don't care if it's only a "slightly" higher risk, it's a big "Do not do it." It's asking for trouble.

Using genetic mutations as an argument against incest is silly. First, not all incestual relationships would have the potential for offspring. A large example of this is homosexual relationships. There is also the issue of impotency, as well as them just not having genital to genital sex. With all of these exceptions, how could one use genetic mutations as an argument against incest in general?

The argument is absurd anyway. The increase in risk of genetic mutation between cousins is smaller than plenty of other acceptable factors. Things such as smoking, drinking or being overweight all increase the risk of harmful genetic mutations (in fact, they can be more dangerous than incest). How does one say the risk of mutation from incest is unacceptable, but the risk from other factors is okay? Do we stop people with hereditary diseases from procreating too?

Arguing against incest is fine, but the whole genetic disorder argument is wrong. It really is just a scare tactic.  

[ferret658]

If you look in the "Is God outside his own rules" thread, i covered this already....Jesus still condemns homoseuality and sexual immorailty. That can be applied to bestialty, incest and masturbation.  

[Matt Pniewski]

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

Grilled Cheese

Matt Pniewski

Sin or not, it's a danger to possible offspring, as inbreding increases risks of birth defects.


I think the question of "Sin" becomes irrelevent when there are other bid "DON'T DO IT" signs all around on.

I understand that point, but you could make the same argument for hemophiliacs and people with other genetic disorders. And reproduction between cousins has only a slightly higher risk for genetic defects than reproduction between two completely unrelated people.

You are talking about something different. You can't change having a genetic disorder. You can choose to have relations with family members.

I don't care if it's only a "slightly" higher risk, it's a big "Do not do it." It's asking for trouble.

Using genetic mutations as an argument against incest is silly. First, not all incestual relationships would have the potential for offspring. A large example of this is homosexual relationships. There is also the issue of impotency, as well as them just not having genital to genital sex. With all of these exceptions, how could one use genetic mutations as an argument against incest in general?

You have me there. No where else in your argument, but I'll concede here.  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

You have me there. No where else in your argument, but I'll concede here.

I assume this means you disagree with my second paragraph. Why? Why should an incestual relationship be forbidden just because it might cause harmful genetic mutations? Plenty of factors increase the chance of such things. How does one draw the distinction between them?

Genetic mutations are a serious problem that can arise from incestual relations. I just do not see how one can use them to justify forbidding such relationships. They can be a bad effect of incest without being a reason to forbid it.

diabolical_ferret658

If you look in the "Is God outside his own rules" thread, i covered this already....Jesus still condemns homoseuality and sexual immorailty. That can be applied to bestialty, incest and masturbation.

I do not agree with this. I cannot think of anything Jesus said which could condemn any of those specific things.

By the way, some of what you said falls outside this topic. While I do not agree on any of those, we should try to stick to incest in this thread. Of course, you are welcome to make a new thread to discuss the others if you would like.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Also if you look at the monarchies of... well, most of Europe during the times when they thought they needed to inbreed to keep the bloodline 'pure' a whole lot of insanity followed. Perhaps this one child might have no ill effects, but enough of it ends up in mutations, madness, or both. Especially looking through the kings of France and Spain, there seems to be an abundance of homosexuality as well, although that could very well be entirely unrelated.

On a personal note... I don't want to meet a woman whose father is referred to as 'Uncle Dad.' It sends off the gross factor, and knowing that her genes are going downhill makes me second-think any romantic feelings on the basis that if we decided to have a child, it might come out deformed, retarded, or have some genetic disease. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

If you look back at the Bible verses about incest... a lot of them are also about 'dishonor.' Sleeping with family members is apparently just downright disrespectful.  

[Deus Agent]

I do not believe the Bible condemns marrying a cousin. I believe the Bible condemns marrying people in closest blood relation, but a cousin is of mixed blood. The thing is, people are saying that marrying cousins is evil and that children of such a marriage would become cursed with genetic problems. In the Bible, people married cousins. If you are not satisfied with that, science also says that children born from cousins have only a very small chance of genetic mutations. If people prefer to think its safer and not view cousins that way, it may be better for them due to their faith. I don't believe that in a faithful and pure relationship between cousins, between good and healthy people who are good with God, that God would curse them for having children. There are a lot of other factors in the world today that lead to increased risks of genetic mutations than a relationship between cousins does. There are a lot of people in the world today with genetic problems, and it's not because they all were born from married cousins.

Also, Christ didn't actually abolish all the Old Testament rules.

Matthew 5: 17

"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish but to fulfill."

Some of the rituals no longer apply in Christ, but the rules for morality still do.

Matthew 15: 19-20

"For out of the heart come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile."

That passage indicates that Jesus condemns all sexual misconduct. He said that fornication is evil. Fornication is sexual misconduct, even in marriage, without the intent of reproduction, which was God's intended purpose for sex. Throughout the Bible God condemns races that are sexually immoral. I read somewhere in the gospel, though I do not remember where the passage is, that sex should not be treated as playing. The passage said something about people getting up and playing in regards to sex, having sex just for the fun of it. Even for heterosexual couples, they should not feel at liberty to abuse the right of sex, to overindulge, and do things like oral and a**l sex. I believe the Bible only approves of vaginal sex for the sake of reproduction, but anything else is unspiritual, it defiles the spirit.

I understand that sex can seem like a harmless thing to enjoy, but it is not a spiritual thing. In Christ we're meant to be spiritual beings, not merely animals, but acting above animals. Even most animals are more restrained sexually than humans. Are other animals God's chosen creatures, or are humans? Or do we say that God is sexually immoral? No, God condemned his angels for mating with humans, didn't he? He also flooded the earth when they did so, at a time when humans turned away from him to indulge in themselves and in all kinds of unspiritual things and sexual immorality. Christians are not meant to be that way. We may struggle with temptations of the flesh, but we must seek to live as Christ. Or was Christ sexually immoral, did he even engage in sex at all? If he did, then he was a hypocrite. There is no suggestion that he was a hypocrite. We should not be either, as the gospel says we should imitate Christ in our lives, be holy as he is holy.

1 Peter 1: 13-16

"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind; discipline yourselves; set all your hope on the grace that Jesus Christ will bring you when he is revealed. Like obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires that you formerly had in ignorance. Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; for it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"

1 Thessalonians 4: 3-7

"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; that each one of you know how to control your own body in holiness and honor, not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one wrong or exploit a brother or sister in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, just as we have already told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness. Therefore whoever rejects this rejects not human authority but God, who also gives his Holy Spirit to you."

Colossians 3: 5-6

"Put to death, therefore, whatever in you is earthly: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). On account of these the wrath of God is coming"

2 Corinthians 7: 1

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God."

1 Corinthians 5: 11
"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name brother or sister who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber."

Galatians 5: 16

"Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh."

Ephesians 5: 3-5

"But fornication and impurity of any kind, or greed, must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saint. Entirely out of place is obscene, silly, or vulgar talk; but instead let there be thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Omega Navi

I do not believe the Bible condemns marrying a cousin. I believe the Bible condemns marrying people in closest blood relation, but a cousin is of mixed blood.

The Bible condemns sleeping with your aunt or uncle. Why would you then be allowed to sleep with the CHILDREN of your aunt/uncle? It also condemns sexual acts between two people who are only closely related through marriage, like a brother/sister-in-law. Is it the blood relation, or the aforementioned dishonoring?  

[Grilled Cheese]

The Amazing Ryuu

The Bible condemns sleeping with your aunt or uncle. Why would you then be allowed to sleep with the CHILDREN of your aunt/uncle? It also condemns sexual acts between two people who are only closely related through marriage, like a brother/sister-in-law. Is it the blood relation, or the aforementioned dishonoring?

The Bible meticulously lists the things you're not supposed to do and why. Along with all the other family members you're not supposed to sleep with, wouldn't God just have said you're not supposed to marry your cousin if it wasn't allowed?

I understand why you'd find the concept of being romantically involved with one's cousin gross. I find the thought of dating one of my cousins to be pretty gross. I just don't understand why it's morally wrong.

***

On a more general note, here's something else I'm wondering: if incest is wrong, what is the reason for it? There's the obvious reason of genetic defects, but does it go deeper than that? Is it because it distorts God's plan for the types of relationships we should have with our family? Or is it only because of the genetic-defects aspect of it?  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Grilled Cheese

Is it because it distorts God's plan for the types of relationships we should have with our family?

I think that's a big part of it, yes. Once you have sex with someone, ANYONE, your whole dynamic with them changes. A family is like a small community (or at least it's suppsed to be), with love and respect all around. If you read through the list of forbidden relatives, it says usually says something like 'do not have sex with your sister-in-law, for you have dishonored your brother.' Sex with relatives, even by marriage, seems to be less about genetic issues and more about respect.

Most families usually tend to look at inbreeding as weird and taboo, so you could also find yourself being shunned, or just outright unwelcome in certain homes or family functions. If you're romantically involved with a cousin, his/her parents might feel the same way. Otherwise you'll have to hide the relationship, which isn't easy nor healthy.

What happens if you break up? You're still related, so you'll probably still occasionally have to see each other. If the relationship has progressed to the sexual stage, it's even harder of a breakup, and even more awkward of a reunion.