Female pastors

[ferret658]

When I told my best friend's dad that my female friend was going to preach for our church's service on Youth Sunday, he flipped out on me. He told me basically that women aren't good for anything in the church except to remain silent. As a slightly hardcore feminist, I was extremely angry. As a Christian, I knew in my heart that he was wrong. Later, he gave me some verses to back what he said up.

I Timothy 2:11-12

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

This feuled the rage....

I thought about it for a few days and came up with a few things. And one new thing just now.

I gave him the example of Deborah in Judges 4. She was a judge over Israel, i.e. she had power an authority over men. He shot this down saying,"God was merely using her to convey messages to the Israelites. He used a donkey to do that as well."

Then I held up Priscilla and Aquila and how names that were first in introductions denoted the status one held. He said, "She was only able to teach that bible study because her husband was there."

Then I went further back in the Bible. Old Testament. Older than Judges. i said to him that the Israelites were not allowed to eat certain things and bathe regularly because God wanted to keep them safe. These were merely cultural issues at a time when cleanliness kept you alive. (I was very tempted to ask him if he got new seats for his jeep or a new bed everytime his wife was on her period, but I didn't want to bring her into this arguement.) He proceeded to tell me that the OT doesn't count.

WHAT?!

....So if I ever decided to be gay or worship false idols and whore myself out in church God would be completely okay with that because those are things written in the OT? He said no. That's not what he meant. BUT THAT'S WHAT HE SAID!

The one new thing I thought of just now before I started typing all this was: Paul was writing these letters to so many different churches. Paul had his unique ministry as did Jesus. What Paul considers okay and acceptable is different than what Jesus would consider accpetable.

Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors for crying out loud. Paul kept people upright. At the time, in I Timothy, there were a lot of problems with misconceptoins of the word and false teachings. Women were the blame for this because we get passionate about what we love. And what we say while still in that stupefied stage isn't always accurate.

Please let me know what you think. Is it acceptable to God that women can preach His word in front of a congregation?  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Firstly, I think your friend's dad is a bit judgemental, and also took those verses out of context. It's good that you didn't drag his wife into it, but in a way, it probably would have helped your case.

Try taking a look at this thread. We discussed this issue and alot of really good points were made in favor of female pastors. Personally, I feel it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to preach. The examples you gave are basically my support for that. Not only that, but if a person is called by God to teach His message, who is any person, man or woman, to say they can't?  

[ferret658]

You're speaking of Paul's first letter to the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 11:2-16). Pauls argument is riddled with fallacies and contradictions. For example, saying in 11:6 that women who do not cover their heads should have their hair cut off and those women who have their hair cut off should have their heads covered. In 11:8, he says that woman came from man, then, in 11:12, he says man is born of woman. In the following verse, he basically tells us to think for ourselves on the issue by begging the question.

Jesus has authority over Paul, and he did not discriminate between male and female. Jesus said that there would be no marriage in Heaven because people would be like the angels (sexless/genderless). To the Galatians, Paul also said that people are all one in Christ, that there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, etc.. Since biological sex is primarily a function of reproduction and does not feature in heaven, it should not be an issue that prevents the truth of scripture to be spoken.
-Priestly-

I just want to say that Paul was meaning that women who didn't have their head covered should shave their heads to further show their disgrace. And those women who had their heads shaved should cover their heads to hide it. And when he says that woman came from man, he was referencing Genesis - then man coming from a woman because after women came from men, they spawned more men.

I don't think Paul was putting in subtle implications to think for themselves. On the contrary. He was telling them what to think because thinking for themselves was what was getting that particular church in Corinth.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Paul thinks in a very non-linear fashion. Anyone who hasn't hung around someone who thinks in circles is probably going to find most of this letter confusing.

In the example that diabolical quoted from the old thread (Corinthians 11:8, 12), I think there's something even more subtle at work here.

I think Paul is reminding the people of Corinth that women have their role in the world as well, and it's more important than they assume. Yes, woman was made from a man, and the man was told to watch over her. Yet, without her, he would be alone, and without the means of producing yet more men. In a male-dominated society, implying that a woman is important is darn close to sacreligious. Yes, most men looked at women as a baby factory, and nothing more. They looked past the importance of such an event, taking it for granted.

If women's importance in life was stressed by this 'trivial' thing, and judges and prophetesses had come before, why not pastors? Women have a different role to play in our society today than just having as many children as possible.  

[ferret658]

You're good.  

[freelance lover]

I am a firm believer in trying to understand the context the Bible was written in, which is one of the arguments (among the many others listed here) why I think female pastors are a-ok (especially as someone who's considered going to seminary.)

In Biblical times, women were not educated. They couldn't read, and were seen as baby machines, cooks, and cleaners. They had very little worth outside of that. Because they were not educated, it makes sense that you would not have them teach. Why would you let an uneducated person teach you? However, now women can receive the same education as men, so why wouldn't you let them teach?

This, among the things already listed make me wonder why some people are still so uncomfortable with the idea of female pastors. The fact that I have a v****a does not make me any less spiritual and in tune with God than a man.  

[ferret658]

freelance lover

I am a firm believer in trying to understand the context the Bible was written in, which is one of the arguments (among the many others listed here) why I think female pastors are a-ok (especially as someone who's considered going to seminary.)

In Biblical times, women were not educated. They couldn't read, and were seen as baby machines, cooks, and cleaners. They had very little worth outside of that. Because they were not educated, it makes sense that you would not have them teach. Why would you let an uneducated person teach you? However, now women can receive the same education as men, so why wouldn't you let them teach?

This, among the things already listed make me wonder why some people are still so uncomfortable with the idea of female pastors. The fact that I have a v****a does not make me any less spiritual and in tune with God than a man.

I can never remember if it was Peter or Paul, but the apostle was a tent maker...He didn't have an education past the equivalent of our second grade (which is like kindergarten or preschool when compared to the current decline in American elementary schools).

I would love for that man to have taught me. biggrin  

[freelance lover]

diabolical_ferret658

freelance lover

I am a firm believer in trying to understand the context the Bible was written in, which is one of the arguments (among the many others listed here) why I think female pastors are a-ok (especially as someone who's considered going to seminary.)

In Biblical times, women were not educated. They couldn't read, and were seen as baby machines, cooks, and cleaners. They had very little worth outside of that. Because they were not educated, it makes sense that you would not have them teach. Why would you let an uneducated person teach you? However, now women can receive the same education as men, so why wouldn't you let them teach?

This, among the things already listed make me wonder why some people are still so uncomfortable with the idea of female pastors. The fact that I have a v****a does not make me any less spiritual and in tune with God than a man.

I can never remember if it was Peter or Paul, but the apostle was a tent maker...He didn't have an education past the equivalent of our second grade (which is like kindergarten or preschool when compared to the current decline in American elementary schools).

I would love for that man to have taught me. biggrin

He was also a man. He also would have had more education than a woman, at any rate and from his letters we can assume he was at least literate since about half the letters are believed to have actually been by him.

In any case, it's a huge double standard and I'm glad most of the world is finally moving past it.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

freelance lover

The fact that I have a v****a does not make me any less spiritual and in tune with God than a man.

Of course it doesn't, dear.

Now, where's my sammich? mrgreen  

[ferret658]

While we're kinda on the subject, why did the woman cross the road?  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

diabolical_ferret658

While we're kinda on the subject, why did the woman cross the road?

She didn't. There are no roads in the kitchen.

Oh, I'm going to hell.

And you're coming with me because you laughed. rofl  

[freelance lover]

The Amazing Ryuu

diabolical_ferret658

While we're kinda on the subject, why did the woman cross the road?

She didn't. There are no roads in the kitchen.

Oh, I'm going to hell.

And you're coming with me because you laughed. rofl

rofl I have jokes much more sacrilegious I could tell you. Ryuu, you're my favorite.  

[ferret658]

lol no...The correct answer is:

WHY IS SHE OUT OF THE KITCHEN AND WHERE'D SHE GET THE SHOES?!  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

As lolarious as these jokes are, I think they are better suited to the chatterbox thread. Let's tell jokes in there, okay? biggrin  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Aww, you're a poor sport, Cap'n. We're still on topic... the topic of whether or not women are good for anything but cooking and baby-making. xp

And I still see no sammich.