Starting fresh, all over again

[Kuroiban]

So I'm in the unique position of having to try and start all over again within my religious and spiritual mindset and not knowing where to start first.

I'd like to consider myself a little bit better then "I read a book" stupidity in terms of knowledge; I don't take Ravenwolf seriously, I take Cunningham and Andrews with a grain of salt, and I'd like to think my fluffy-bullshit-o-meter is better then average.

At the same time, I find all the fluff paralyzing; I have no idea what I can read and take at even a semblance of face value. I'm always afraid then anything I've read is just fluff, and that I'm missing the basic values of truth that are contained somewhere else.

I have some idea of where I'm going with things; some ideas, thoughts, and beliefs sort of condensed on me recently and I feel like I've got a basic spiritual compass for the first time in years. People who peer into pathways and are at all familiar with my occasional trips in here might know what I mean; I've started several spiritual/mysticism based ideas and never get anywhere with them.

I'm really focused on actually getting somewhere this time around and I want to be looking in the right directions, reading the right sources, and writing the right words down.

Any suggestions are welcome, cause I'm really looking to connect with my spirituality but for all that I have read and all that I do know, I'm feeling like I know little to nothing.  

[TagraNar]

Perhaps you should listen to your sig? Less searching through mountains of information, and more looking at what is already sitting inside of you?  

[Kuroiban]

TagraNar

Perhaps you should listen to your sig? Less searching through mountains of information, and more looking at what is already sitting inside of you?

I have been doing that to some degree. Admittedly, I could probably do better in that.

Still, I would like some suggestions of how to find the needles in the fluff-stack  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Kuroiban

At the same time, I find all the fluff paralyzing; I have no idea what I can read and take at even a semblance of face value. I'm always afraid then anything I've read is just fluff, and that I'm missing the basic values of truth that are contained somewhere else.

When I go in search of things to read, I rarely hit up the Metaphysics section (which is now integrated into the Religion section at our local Borders; this gives me mixed feelings) and instead, head straight for the History books. That's where I find copies of the myths and lore. So that's my recommendation. If you have an idea of what gods you're called to, read their myths and lore. While "NightWings's Guide to the Greeks" might be an easier to digest read and might help you understand the myths a bit, it's not a very good replacement for reading the myths themselves.
I hope this helped sweatdrop .  

[Kuroiban]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Kuroiban

At the same time, I find all the fluff paralyzing; I have no idea what I can read and take at even a semblance of face value. I'm always afraid then anything I've read is just fluff, and that I'm missing the basic values of truth that are contained somewhere else.

When I go in search of things to read, I rarely hit up the Metaphysics section (which is now integrated into the Religion section at our local Borders; this gives me mixed feelings) and instead, head straight for the History books. That's where I find copies of the myths and lore. So that's my recommendation. If you have an idea of what gods you're called to, read their myths and lore. While "NightWings's Guide to the Greeks" might be an easier to digest read and might help you understand the myths a bit, it's not a very good replacement for reading the myths themselves.
I hope this helped sweatdrop .

Thanks! That's actually a load of help right there... sweatdrop  

[Kuroiban]

So I went to the bookstore...Barnes and Nobles for the curious.

It's been quite some time since I hit ANY bookstore on anything approaching spirituality, so it was a bit of an eye opener. It took me quite longer then it really ought to have took for me to find the history section, and I was surrounded by mostly books that looked like they were cashing in on those curious about Islamic fundamentalists and (curiously) the Knights Templar....though I guess that curiosity is fueled by books by Dan Brown if I had to guess.

Some thoughts...

*The metaphysics/spirituality section is just as depressing as when I left it. Conway has a nauseating amount of books available, though in retrospect, I think I didn't see anything by SRW...so I guess it all balances out in some way.

*Other then knowing D.J. Conway, Amber K, and SRW are utter crap, and aside of knowing Ted Andrews, Cunningham, and a few others just need to be taken with variouys degrees of salt, I'm not oblivious to what authors are actually respectable and which ones are bat s**t crazy.

*On a completely unrelated note, I passed the "self-help" section and saw the selection of books on OCD. I wanted to organize them, mostly for my own amusement at the process. xd  

[TeaDidikai]

The two things I would recommend would be to 1) Figure out what your personal understanding of the divine, spirituality, religion and ritual are and then work backwards from there.

2) When it comes to sources, hit the archeology and anthropology sections of the stores in question.

Something that I wouldn't recommend off the bat unless I thought you were heading that direction anyway is to take the material that is open, such as Standing Stone Trad and the like, and rework it to fit you like a glove, since that was the intention of making Standing Stone public in the first place.  

[Kuroiban]

TeaDidikai

The two things I would recommend would be to 1) Figure out what your personal understanding of the divine, spirituality, religion and ritual are and then work backwards from there.

2) When it comes to sources, hit the archeology and anthropology sections of the stores in question.

Something that I wouldn't recommend off the bat unless I thought you were heading that direction anyway is to take the material that is open, such as Standing Stone Trad and the like, and rework it to fit you like a glove, since that was the intention of making Standing Stone public in the first place.

1) is what I'm having the most trouble with atm. I came close to something in terms of a ritual magic system to work with, just to get started and use as a compass to work with...but I get lost in the minutia. I get worried about making sure my elemental to compass point directions are all correct and somewhat standardized and silly crap like that. Part of me knows that this stuff is trivial, but it really holds me back at the same time. sweatdrop stressed sweatdrop

2) is more of an elberation on advice already given, but it's welcomed none the less as I didn't think of Archeology or Anthropology as additional sources.

I did do some modest research, on the internet at large and the Internet Sacred Text Archieve in particular, to try and get some other starting points. Norse Recon, as well as Roman Recon, are looking intresting. Anyone can suggest, off the top of their head, any other "open" recon paths?  

[TeaDidikai]

Kuroiban

1) is what I'm having the most trouble with atm. I came close to something in terms of a ritual magic system to work with, just to get started and use as a compass to work with...but I get lost in the minutia. I get worried about making sure my elemental to compass point directions are all correct and somewhat standardized and silly crap like that. Part of me knows that this stuff is trivial, but it really holds me back at the same time. sweatdrop stressed sweatdrop

Why do you think it is holding you back? What makes you think it is trivial?

Buying a respectable compass is only a few bucks and a trip to an outdoor store away. If it works for you, why would the position of others that it isn't useful be considered?

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2) is more of an elberation on advice already given, but it's welcomed none the less as I didn't think of Archeology or Anthropology as additional sources.

I typically consider them to be primary sources.

See, when people go about constructing a modern pagan religion, they have a few different options in how they put it together (or at least a few common ones).

Some folks go patchwork- they have pieces of information and they substitute personal understandings for the holes.

Some folks go contextual. The Recons have archeological information and they extrapolate theological understandings from these that fit with the historical information they have. Often these practices need to be updated in order to apply to Modern Living.

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Anyone can suggest, off the top of their head, any other "open" recon paths?

Slavic Paganism is rather interesting. Any reason you're limiting it to reconstruction traditions?  

[TeaDidikai]

Kuroiban

I was more talking about making sure my compass associates were correct; which element assigns with which direction traditionally for example.

Sorry. Not following then.

Can you rephrase? I'm trying to see why you are being held back.

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I feel afraid to go patchwork because I have a real hard time differentiating UPG for just random ideas.

This issue can be combated by learning how to test ideas and being willing to change when better information comes along.

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I have problems going contextual because I'm paranoid about the validity of my information at any given point.

This is combated with cross referencing material, double checking sources and using academic sources, such as peer reviewed text books on the subjects at hand.

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Mostly because it simply didn't occur to include anything else. sweatdrop rolleyes dur...

Well, outside of Recon trads you have eclectic, and PoO trads (point of origin, ie- things that aren't eclectic, but instead are your own personal tradition)  

[Kuroiban]

TeaDidikai

Sorry. Not following then.

Can you rephrase? I'm trying to see why you are being held back.

I'm always afraid of braking conventions I guess. Like which direction associates with which element. Like North associates with...Earth I think? I'm not sure which elements go with which directions. It seems trivial, to me at least, but I feel like I can't get into things until I know what to do that is "right".

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I feel afraid to go patchwork because I have a real hard time differentiating UPG for just random ideas.

This issue can be combated by learning how to test ideas and being willing to change when better information comes along.

Testing ideas is a very weak arena for me.

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I have problems going contextual because I'm paranoid about the validity of my information at any given point.

This is combated with cross referencing material, double checking sources and using academic sources, such as peer reviewed text books on the subjects at hand.

Understood. A bit easier there.

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Well, outside of Recon trads you have eclectic, and PoO trads (point of origin, ie- things that aren't eclectic, but instead are your own personal tradition)

I was beginning to work on a PoO trad recently, but my hold ups above sort of made it difficult to proceed.....I'm always worried I'm 'wrong'.  

[Ashley the Bee]

Kuroiban

TeaDidikai

Sorry. Not following then.

Can you rephrase? I'm trying to see why you are being held back.

I'm always afraid of braking conventions I guess. Like which direction associates with which element. Like North associates with...Earth I think? I'm not sure which elements go with which directions. It seems trivial, to me at least, but I feel like I can't get into things until I know what to do that is "right".

Sorry to interrupt, but why do you think it's trivial?

And, if you're afraid of breaking conventions, perhaps these details should be put off until you have a better understanding of the groundwork? That is, build a foundation that includes elemental theory, and then, using that tradition, discover what the alignments would be... at least in this example.

Kuroiban

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I feel afraid to go patchwork because I have a real hard time differentiating UPG for just random ideas.

This issue can be combated by learning how to test ideas and being willing to change when better information comes along.

Testing ideas is a very weak arena for me.

Practice makes perfect, as they say. wink

Kuroiban

I was beginning to work on a PoO trad recently, but my hold ups above sort of made it difficult to proceed.....I'm always worried I'm 'wrong'.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding PoO traditions, but how, exactly, could you be "wrong"?

I must admit, I'm not very knowledgeable on many of these things, but, from what I've gathered, this is a cyclical process of creation.

That is, start with the concepts that you know are correct, either via UPG, or if there's nothing, what feels to be correct. Do it, and see how it works. Listen to yourself, your environment, the deities, spirits, other energies you're working with.

Take what you've felt, what you've learned, and what you experienced in that process and reflect upon it. Does it fit, or does something seem off? If something seems off, how so? Is it not being familiar with something, or is it something more?

Sorry! I hope that makes some amount of sense, and that I'm not blowing too much smoke.  

[TeaDidikai]

Kuroiban

I'm always afraid of braking conventions I guess. Like which direction associates with which element. Like North associates with...Earth I think? I'm not sure which elements go with which directions. It seems trivial, to me at least, but I feel like I can't get into things until I know what to do that is "right".

What is "right" depends on the tradition. It's like learning how to drive. The proper way to drive depends on what country you live in. Signage is different, aggressive verses defensive driving is seen in a different light etc.

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Testing ideas is a very weak arena for me.

What problems have you had?

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I was beginning to work on a PoO trad recently, but my hold ups above sort of made it difficult to proceed.....I'm always worried I'm 'wrong'.

Look for internal contradictions and amend as needed. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.  

[Kuroiban]

Ashley the Bee

Kuroiban

I'm always afraid of braking conventions I guess. Like which direction associates with which element. Like North associates with...Earth I think? I'm not sure which elements go with which directions. It seems trivial, to me at least, but I feel like I can't get into things until I know what to do that is "right".

Sorry to interrupt, but why do you think it's trivial?

And, if you're afraid of breaking conventions, perhaps these details should be put off until you have a better understanding of the groundwork? That is, build a foundation that includes elemental theory, and then, using that tradition, discover what the alignments would be... at least in this example.

I feel it's trivial, essentially, because if fluff-i-fied, space-cased, flake-a-zoids can get results praying to a non-existant parking space god then, in all reality, whether South is Fire or Water is somewhat non-essential; it's the focus, drive, and determination of the person involved.

However, I have no desire to steal, butcher, and debauch anything...but I'm never quite certain what is time-honored tradition and what is open to interpretation.

Ashley the Bee

Kuroiban

Testing ideas is a very weak arena for me.

Practice makes perfect, as they say. wink

Yes, but when it comes to more ethereal matters, I really feel like I lack a good set of tool for testing the material. So it's really a lack of feeling capable rather then desire.

Ashley the Bee

Kuroiban

I was beginning to work on a PoO trad recently, but my hold ups above sort of made it difficult to proceed.....I'm always worried I'm 'wrong'.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding PoO traditions, but how, exactly, could you be "wrong"?

I must admit, I'm not very knowledgeable on many of these things, but, from what I've gathered, this is a cyclical process of creation.

That is, start with the concepts that you know are correct, either via UPG, or if there's nothing, what feels to be correct. Do it, and see how it works. Listen to yourself, your environment, the deities, spirits, other energies you're working with.

Take what you've felt, what you've learned, and what you experienced in that process and reflect upon it. Does it fit, or does something seem off? If something seems off, how so? Is it not being familiar with something, or is it something more?

Sorry! I hope that makes some amount of sense, and that I'm not blowing too much smoke.

No it makes sense.

In brief terms, I feel like my right and left sides of the brain are constantly having mortal kombat, much to my chagrin. Everytime I want to go with the flow and just see what works, the more function and organizational side of me wants everything to fit into nice neat rows before I start.

Needless to say it's a big, pain in the a**, personality flaw.

TeaDidikai

Kuroiban

I'm always afraid of braking conventions I guess. Like which direction associates with which element. Like North associates with...Earth I think? I'm not sure which elements go with which directions. It seems trivial, to me at least, but I feel like I can't get into things until I know what to do that is "right".

What is "right" depends on the tradition. It's like learning how to drive. The proper way to drive depends on what country you live in. Signage is different, aggressive verses defensive driving is seen in a different light etc.

Damn, nice metaphor.

So, in other words, if I have no established tradition....anyway that makes sense will be right and I won't be stepping on anyone's toes?

TeaDidikai

Kuroiban

Testing ideas is a very weak arena for me.

What problems have you had?

See above.

TeaDidikai

Kuroiban

I was beginning to work on a PoO trad recently, but my hold ups above sort of made it difficult to proceed.....I'm always worried I'm 'wrong'.

Look for internal contradictions and amend as needed. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

Thanks to both of you. I think a lot of my problems stem from just being afraid to get it wrong in the first place, so I get gun shy of starting anything at all.