neopagan.

[aoijea23487]

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[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

Deistic>Shiva>Laran>Mars etc

Most interesting indeed.

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i've been trying to reconcile my Hegelian beliefs with my hard polytheistic tendencies. is it possible to have primary gods and secondary gods? my nameless God and Goddess could still be prime-mover-ish in a deist sense

Term you are looking for is Henotheism. Overarching deity/deities with subordinate deities who involve themselves in mortal affairs as it suits them. I can give you a couple examples of other henotheistic traditions if you like.

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and then all of the cultural deities [Gaelic (...or is that Celtic?),

Deities of the Gael, Gaelic is an Anglicization, which some of the Gael find highly insulting.

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however, i'm not sure how that flows logically, and i'm not sure how i feel about accepting the existence of deities [like the Roman deities] yet rejecting portions of their mythos [but, even to be a straight-up hard polytheist, wouldn't you still have to reject the other pantheons' creation mythos]?

When it comes to creation mythos, my husband has a rather insightful perspective. What was the "World" to the men and women who were given the spiritual understandings about creation by their gods? A mile? As far as the eye could see? Whatever was short of the horizon? Why would how YHVH forged his sandbox be indicative of the sum of creation when just out of view Odin could be shaping mountains from fallen Joten?

~cough~  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

thank you so much for your input! i will have a cup of tea in your honor~

~Sweeping bow~ Welcome.

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i've actually heard of henotheism... i have no idea why it didn't come to me.

I don't personally rule out the possibility of Henotheism as a valid theological Truth, I just find it irrelevant- if that deity is removed, I see little point in paying any attention with them.

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those examples of other henotheistic traditions would be much appreciated [:

Some of the Roman cults acted as Henotheistic traditions under certain Emperors, Vodou is Henotheistic- which is why it's compatible with Catholicism, since YHVH is their "Removed God" who left the Loa in charge (a bit simplistic I admit)

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kudos to your husband; that makes a lot of sense. how about something like deities of the sun, though?

"Deities of X" is always a strange concept. I usually view this more a function of external cultural filtering than anything theological.

How do you explain the complexities that are present in gods such as Apollo, Helios, Suna, Khom, Horus etc except to reduce it to the lowest common denominator, when trying to summarize whole cults (if not collections of cults based on region)?

Often these are done with little to no actual scholarship in the assumptions- for example, Apollo isn't the Sun.

For some deities who are deities of X because they are X, such as Helios, Suna, Khom, it becomes difficult to justify certain understandings, after all, the sun over Germany is the same sun over Greece.

My personal solution for this follows thus:
When it comes to things that cannot be separated, the association becomes a function of presence, rather than identity. Shon is the moon because she is present there- a "spiritual village" if you will of Summer Homes wherein deities have time-shares. Her identity is her own, but just as more than one individual can be in the same room at the same time, likewise can there be multiple presences in a realm.

Contrast this with things that can be separated- the Rain that falls on my face is not the same rain that falls in Spain. I should know, I have a friend in Spain who can catch drops in her yard while I catch drops in mine.

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thanks so much for that book suggestion; i happen to have stumbled upon a few extra $$ and can now afford it [:

Welcome.  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

thankyouthankyouthankyou!!

Welcome.

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your solution makes a lot of sense to me. is it weird that it reminded me of electron orbitals in chemistry?

Not at all.

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i was reading over the ATC because i am being called to them like nobody's business. they had a little passage that i was intrigued by yet wary of:

ATC

In many early biblical translations, Genesis 1:26 first refers to deity as Elohim, which is a plural Hebrew word for deity which includes both male and female genders. Later, in Genesis 2:7, the single male godform called YHVH or Yahveh appears, to dominate the Old Testament and Judaism, and subsequently Christianity, thenceforth.

But in Genesis 1:26 we read that Elohim declaims the creation of humanity - a population of people, not just two. Later, in Genesis 2:7-9 Adam and Eve are created as a special, chosen people, special to Yahveh alone. Many people often overlook this small but telling detail. There were “other people,” those who were not the “chosen people” of Yahveh in the Bible - the people of the “Land of Nod” east of Eden, from whence came Cain’s wife, for example.

firstly, is this accurate?

Accurate enough. Part of the catch would be that it's possible to read "Adam" as a plural, rather than a proper name, but the roles of the deities as outlined is accurate.

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i remember something along the same lines being said in my Catholic Scripture class, but i was of the understanding that YHVH was not definitively masculine and singular. or am i totally wrong?

YHVH is represented as masculine and singular. It is a proper name.

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secondly, if that passage is correct, it really reminded me about what you said your husband said about the creation stories of different cultures, and it reinforces my cosmology.

wink

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i sent an email to the ATC and asked if their specific tradition was a lineaged tradition of Wicca. no [eagerly awaited] response yet.

I can tell you from my personal contact with Pete Davis, that they are not of the Wica.

Depending on how you have your hopes set- you may be in for disappointment.

My suggestion would be to talk with them and not expect that they tow the M&R Party Line, but instead evaluate them as a group independently of their use of the word Wicca.  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

thanks for these! always good to learn something new and correct old misinformation.

Welcome.

Part of what you may want to consider is that the early religious cults that YHVH stemmed from was polytheistic. wink

Also, when you get into Jewish Mysticism, the concept of Divine Gender isn't always as clear as it is within the linguistics used in the Tanakh.

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I can tell you from my personal contact with Pete Davis, that they are not of the Wica.

Depending on how you have your hopes set- you may be in for disappointment.

My suggestion would be to talk with them and not expect that they tow the M&R Party Line, but instead evaluate them as a group independently of their use of the word Wicca.

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i'm of course open to critique on that reasoning.

Not sure where I come down anymore. I was lurking in M&R and saw an interesting thread, but I forgot when.

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i will take your advice to heart since these do seem like good people and i have a shot at finding some traditionalists.

Heck, the PFA has trad Wica amongst it's numbers.

I think we might just have to get to know one another well enough for me to feel comfortable introducing you to some folks.  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

can you recommend a source on jewish mysticism and kabbalah?

How in depth do you want the source to be? Are we talking The Chicken Kabalah? Or do you want the Sepher Yetzirah?

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what is the Tanakh?

Simple translation: The Old Testament.

The Tanakh consists of the Torah and the other books of the Prophets.

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i asked A&J about ATC and they did not have any nice things to say other than they helped American soldiers get pentagrams on their tombstones, which is admirable.

In all fairness, if you are lineaged and of the Wica, but you do not agree with the established opinions of Amber and Jet, then you won't be there long.

Even the Farrar's get flack from them- people who were initiated by Alex Saunders. Heck, some Gardnarians won't accept Alexandrians as of the Wica.

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i've been in touch with a gardnerian coven seeking initiates and a mohsian third degree is being quite friendly with me but is no longer teaching, so she's referring me to some people downline from her.

which still surprises me; i would think that covens would think i'm still too young.

Proper Personhood within the Law of the Land has a defined standard. You're a legal adult, ya?

Anything beyond that is left to the individual High Priest and Priestess.

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1. is afterlife the same for everyone? or, do Christians go to Heaven, do Buddhists get immediately reincarnated, and do Wiccans go to Summerland? i'm thinking that might be possible, if prime-mover deities can supply the universe with new souls, as there are infinitely many experiences to be had and i don't see reincarnation as absolutely necessary.

That's UPG you'll have to be granted yourself.

My UPG says it is different based on who you follow.

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i am having a hard time discerning if the gods of the Wica are completely independent deities, manifestations of the two prime-mover deities, or the prime-mover deities themselves intermingling in human affairs for whatever reason [and attributed themselves to certain Earth qualities for our easier understanding]. perhaps this will remain a mystery until/if i am initiated.

The Wica can't even agree on this point. I wouldn't expect anything more than Gnosis through Orthopraxy on this point.

How are things with Tin going?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

When it comes to creation mythos, my husband has a rather insightful perspective. What was the "World" to the men and women who were given the spiritual understandings about creation by their gods? A mile? As far as the eye could see? Whatever was short of the horizon? Why would how YHVH forged his sandbox be indicative of the sum of creation when just out of view Odin could be shaping mountains from fallen Joten?

Hah! That's great. Makes a lot of sense to me. Most Kemetic stories have multiple sides to them; I know of four creation stories, and three reasons for the sun to rise and travel and set...this tendency of course used to hilarious advantage in a Terry Pratchett novel. //Goes back to lurking.//  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

I still feel like it's weird that what Cunningham & co. are putting out is called Wicca. It seems so much different than what Wicca originally was.

Why do you feel it is different?

I'll keep my personal opinions about it to myself, but I'd like to pose a question:
Based on what you know of Wica, do you think it is more likely that Gardner had a fully formed theological tradition that we see today or do you think that during the early years the cult was more organic- a few basic concepts that were discussed amongst members who had differing opinions and how would that effect those initiated at different times from different people?

Do you think someone who received a quick initiation at the end of Gardner's life had the same experience as his initial HPS?

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Plus, without knowing whether or not they're closed off, how can I check if they're thoughtforms? How can I test them?

I see a lot of work ahead.

Testing takes many forms. How you are experiencing them will set the baseline for the test.