Wait, I'm an extremist?

[Cyrus the Elder]

During my usual trawling of current political events, at home and abroad, I happened across this.

What exactly is this, you might ask? It is a lexicon of types of extremism released and declassified by the DHS.

Now, most pages are filled with the usual hard to comprehend jibber-jabber that bureaucracy is wont to churn out of an average day. However, I would draw one's attention to this specific excerpt on page 7.

Quote:

(U) racial Nordic
mysticism
(U//FOUO) An ideology adopted by many white supremacist prison gangs who embrace a Norse mythological religion, such as Odinism or Asatru.
(also: Odinism, Asatru)

Yup, apparently Asatruar are predisposed to be extremists now because some prison ******** are part of that religion. Seems a bit odd that they'd throw in this guilt by association and not throw in "Christianity" since a ******** load of white supremacists out there are Christian.

Also, I'd like to quickly note that the majority of the groups stated explicitly include a statement that these extremist groups directly include racist, violent, or anti-government views and actions as a matter of course, and yet, for some reason, this particular part does not.

I mean, I can accept that they may indeed be using a government "in-term" that deals directly with the extreme racial views that these people hold, but why include the (also: Odinism, Asatru) at the end if that was their intent?

I find this truly outrageous, truly truly truly outrageous. ninja

Now, is this thing just poorly written leading to miscommunication, discriminatory, or am I just developing a slight persecution complex? ninja  

[Adalyna]

I've read that there was a group like that, who believed in a sort of... white supremacist Asatru, which later died out. I don't know if this is true or not, or if the website is trying to say all Asatru believers follow this racial supremacist ideology.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Asahi Sara

I've read that there was a group like that, who believed in a sort of... white supremacist Asatru, which later died out. I don't know if this is true or not, or if the website is trying to say all Asatru believers follow this racial supremacist ideology.

Yeah, they exist. But that's not really my point. My point was more, doesn't it seem a bit stupid that they're basically tarring all Asatruar with the same brush when it's only certain people within that are generally disowned and loathed anyway ninja  

[Adalyna]

Ahh, yes, that is more than a bit stupid then. sad What's worse, many people who don't realize there is a modern Asatru practice, may believe that this racist division of it, is the only practice in modern day existence. I don't mean this to sound unconcerned, but maybe try writing the site authors a letter or something? Here's to hoping Asatruar as racists doesn't become a new ongoing stereotype rolleyes  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Asahi Sara

Ahh, yes, that is more than a bit stupid then. sad What's worse, many people who don't realize there is a modern Asatru practice, may believe that this racist division of it, is the only practice in modern day existence. I don't mean this to sound unconcerned, but maybe try writing the site authors a letter or something? Here's to hoping Asatruar as racists doesn't become a new ongoing stereotype rolleyes

Well, that's the thing, it's the American Department of Homeland Security, so the chances of this having a severe negative impact are a little higher than one might otherwise think. ninja  

[maenad nuri]

Look at the wording though: It makes it fairly clear that the extremists are the white supremacists in prison . Which isn't always true, but it's a fairly clear us versus them.

But it's really nothing knew. When I working in recycling I cleaned up the university police station. They had a listing of common racist symbols. Norse ones featured prominatly on them. This wasn't really a horrible thing, since within an hours drive there are several prominent white supremacist groups, but still.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

maenad nuri

Look at the wording though: It makes it fairly clear that the extremists are the white supremacists in prison . Which isn't always true, but it's a fairly clear us versus them.

But it's really nothing knew. When I working in recycling I cleaned up the university police station. They had a listing of common racist symbols. Norse ones featured prominatly on them. This wasn't really a horrible thing, since within an hours drive there are several prominent white supremacist groups, but still.

Fair enough, the problem I have is the (also: ) bit, the way it's used in other ones makes it clear that they're subsects/synonyms for what's being discussed. That's the troubling part, they seem, at first glance at least, to be equivocating Asatru with white supremacist ideology. Normally I wouldn't be worried about it, maybe roll my eyes and get on with things, but we all know how literally the government can choose to interpret things when it serves their purposes.... ninja  

[TeaDidikai]

If this was a sole reference, I would be on board.

But since the government is aware of Asatru outside of the prison system, and in fact even has a section in the Chaplin's Handbook, I'm seeing it less as a function of "OMG ALL ASATRU ARE PRISON RACISTS!" and more of "Odinism and Prison Racism is a real issue".  

[aoijea23487]

i think that the Christian supremacy thing was addressed in many other topics on that, though. i agree with you that they seem to be painting Asatru as an inherently white supremacist religion. which is wrong.

i fall under animal rights "extremism" and green anarchism. apparently my beliefs suddenly make me prone to violence?

also, wasn't this country birthed through rebellion, violence, and criminal action? not saying that violence is always okay if you have a motive behind it, just saying.  

[MoonJeli]

The government is well aware of the difference. The wording doesn't even say "Asatru who are white supremacists" -- it specifically says "white supremacist prison gang members who are Odinists or Asatru". (And most of them follow Odinism, rather than Asatru, if I remember right?)  

[Deoridhe]

I would say persecution complex.

It is a fact that there are several white supremacist groups that use Odinism and Asatru to try to give their disgusting prejudice legitimacy. They are the assholes causing the problems. Any anger, rage, dismissal, or nastiness should be directed at them, not the people noting their existence.

The bait & switch of focusing on the people pointing out the racism instead of the racist assholes themselves is a common indication of unconscious bias. Unfortunately, since a lot of bias is unconscious, the only way to see it is through negative - looking for the event horizon or bias so we can consciously try to correct for it. This is extremely difficult to do, but one easy way to measure bias is to notice who is focused on - the person who is doing the unacceptable thing or the person who is pointing it out or the target of the unacceptable thing.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Ok guys, just to point it out, my problem isn't with whether the government thinks Asatru is all in the prison system, my problem is that since it's included in an extremist lexicon and worded in such a broad and fuzzy way the DHS could use this in a negative way and it could lead to problems.

Let me give an example. Nicey McNice gets thrown in jail for possession of marijuana, he happens to be Asatruar, so now he's an Asatruar in prison. This could start to cause problems for him either whilst in jail, or after getting out because of the relatively poor wording of that thing. The government could choose to make his parole restrictions stronger because they believe he's got a high disposition towards being a racial supremacist because of his religious beliefs. My problem with all of this crap is that it smells an awful lot like profiling.

And Deo, kindly don't even insinuate that I'm in any way shape or form ******** stare Most people know my stance on them, I'm not here to debate them, I'm here to debate the legitimacy of an entire religion being included in an extremist lexicon just because there's a notable group of ******** extremists in it. This isn't a bait and switch, I'm fine with the government pointing out that the racist white supremacists who use Asatru and the like to justify their bigotry need to be stopped, what I'm not alright with is having Asatru as a whole thrown in an extremist lexicon. Every other one the title is "[Religion] Extremists", but for Asatru it's just, basically, "Asatru".

In short, I've no problem with the government pointing out racist ********, what I have a problem with is the same problem I'd have if the government included "African American" in the lexicon.

Unless of course you'd like to state that my disagreement with the PATRIOT Act is because I'm biased towards terrorists stare  

[TeaDidikai]

Cyrus the Elder

Ok guys, just to point it out, my problem isn't with whether the government thinks Asatru is all in the prison system, my problem is that since it's included in an extremist lexicon and worded in such a broad and fuzzy way the DHS could use this in a negative way and it could lead to problems.

No. They really can't. Bill of Rights and all.

Quote:

Let me give an example. Nicey McNice gets thrown in jail for possession of marijuana, he happens to be Asatruar, so now he's an Asatruar in prison. This could start to cause problems for him either whilst in jail, or after getting out because of the relatively poor wording of that thing. The government could choose to make his parole restrictions stronger because they believe he's got a high disposition towards being a racial supremacist because of his religious beliefs. My problem with all of this crap is that it smells an awful lot like profiling.

I call bullshit. The reason I call bullshit is because I know of Godhi who work with prison chaplins to ensure the rights of prisoners.

In short- you're having a reactionary response and it's resting on an appeal to potential- without any examples of such happening.

Quote:

And Deo, kindly don't even insinuate that I'm in any way shape or form ******** stare

I don't see where she did that myself.  

[Recursive Paradox]

I really think you're jumping the gun here, Cyrus. The wording is a little sloppy but it would take a really stupid DHS employee to genuinely mistake that as a claim that all Asatru are racist criminals.

And that particular stupid employee would perpetuate one bad case that would promptly end in the DHS apologizing, retracting its actions and firing said stupid employee. And that is the absolute worst, most unlikely case.

I think you're just being a bit paranoid.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

TeaDidikai

No. They really can't. Bill of Rights and all.

Redacted because I can't remember who I'm actually ******** thinking of and am not going to go around stating stuff that I can't back up.

Quote:

I call bullshit. The reason I call bullshit is because I know of Godhi who work with prison chaplins to ensure the rights of prisoners.

In short- you're having a reactionary response and it's resting on an appeal to potential- without any examples of such happening.

So, you have to wait until annoyingly vague government policy and the like is misused to point out that it could conceivably be easily misused? confused

Quote:

I don't see where she did that myself.

Then what "bias" do I have that would cause me to deflect away from racists and attack those attacking racists?