An Argument Against Reconstructionism

[Bastemhet]

This is not my argument, but an argument put forth by someone else that I don't think I completely agree with.

Quote:

Lesson 2 : Reconstructionism just really doesn’t work.

While it’s a nice idea to be able to revive an ancient religion that fell dormant after it was interrupted millennia ago to bring it into the modern world, it just doesn’t work out well in practice. Ancient religions such as Kemeticism were living religions. They grew and evolved as the people’s understanding of the Gods, their personal religious needs, and the world around them changed. When these religions were interrupted, these religions were unable to continue to grow. Picking them up for modern times “as is” leads to unnecessary strain on those who try to follow these religions, as the methods of worship are not intended for use in today’s world, but for a world long since past.

They go on to say that much of the way they construct their religion is by intuition, personal gnosis, instruction from the gods, and some studying of texts to get an understanding of ancient ritual and what it meant to the people of the time.

Is this a viable way to form one's path? Or should we really try to recreate religions that were interrupted in the same way they were practiced, or as close as possible as we can get?

Any opinions or comments welcome. Feel free to relate your own personal path in context of the discussion.

Edit: this comes from a site for a person who is doing something similar to Kemetic recon but is more intuitive about it than focused on scholarly sources.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

(I may be wrong in some of the things I say; if so, feel free to correct me)

It kind of sounds like the speaker in that quote thinks that Recons try to reconstruct all of the older practices and such. When really, as far as Asatru goes, I can't think of anyone who has successfully brought back every single practice and belief. For my experiences, I try to reconstruct and bring back the practices that are feasible and within my ability to do in the modern context.

Since the only other Recons I know are here on Gaia, I would say that the reconstruction tends to start with source texts mostly, then historical and/or anthropological texts, UPG, and then maybe some of the New Age books.  

[Bastemhet]

Violet: I edited my post to reflect that this person is trying to create a modern approach to ancient Egyptian religion.

Trying to reconstruct Egyptian religion can be particularly difficult because of scarce availability of religious texts (I read somewhere that they didn't feel the need to write many things down, but placed great emphasis on daily ritual). Or even that there are separate threads of ideas or interpretations of finds from archaeological digs that are still being discovered, and it can be a task to take these disparate findings and put them together as a cohesive system of thought.

Later on in the author's article she says it can be too difficult and therefore pointless, if trying to live well and honor the gods should be enough to label oneself as Kemetic. This is the part I don't agree with. Difficulty does not equate with impossibility.

I also don't like how she generalizes all recons, because it seems to me that Hellenic recon has a plethora of available information and source texts to make a viable modern form. I think you are right that it is an erroneous assumption that recons think they can replicate it exactly. There will probably be, for any ancient religion, a source text of great importance that is lost to time. One can only do their best, and that includes a sincere study of cultural context in order to please the gods and not insult them.  

[maenad nuri]

Seems to me this person is attacking a strawman -- for most Hellenic Recons, they are attempting to reconstruct Hellenic religion first by picking up where they left off, and then extrapolating where it would be now.

....which is almost exactly what she is arguing against.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Maybe it's just my branch of Kemetic recon, but it's still a living religion. We have to adjust for the fact that there is only one physical temple and that most contact adherents have with each other is over the Internet, barring the annual gatherings and the few cities that have several of us. A lot is extrapolated from a mix of ancient sources, instruction from the gods, and taking the modern world into account. Revival vs reconstruction, I suppose, but even that distinction assumes that other types of recons don't do that as well.

Goldschlager is obviously not an offering the ancients would have used, but reportedly Aset likes it anyway.  

[Bastemhet]

TheDisreputableDog

Maybe it's just my branch of Kemetic recon, but it's still a living religion. We have to adjust for the fact that there is only one physical temple and that most contact adherents have with each other is over the Internet, barring the annual gatherings and the few cities that have several of us. A lot is extrapolated from a mix of ancient sources, instruction from the gods, and taking the modern world into account. Revival vs reconstruction, I suppose, but even that distinction assumes that other types of recons don't do that as well.

Goldschlager is obviously not an offering the ancients would have used, but reportedly Aset likes it anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean by it still being a living religion...what I mean when I say a religion is living is if it never stopped being practiced by a nation of people, like the Celtic trad. From what I know, you're Kemetic Orthodox, right? Ms. Siuda created that brand of Kemetic recon in the late 1980's, as per the website.

As an aside, I would like to have a discussion on whether having a divine Nisut is feasible right now, and also some things I've heard about the HoN that aren't very favorable...but I'll get to that in another post.  

[patch99329]

I think she misjudges how reconstructionism works. Or at least, recon from THIS hellenic recon's POV. ninja

Trying to recreate ancient practices and values, yet also practicing a religion that is living and viable in a modern context.  

[CuAnnan]

Sophist

I'm not sure what you mean by it still being a living religion...what I mean when I say a religion is living is if it never stopped being practiced by a nation of people, like the Celtic trad.

Firstly, there was never a codified religious practice followed by the Celtic peoples. That would be ridiculous. That's like saying the tradition practiced by English speaking peoples.
Secondly, would you like to clarify whether you are claiming that the cultural practices of the Celtic peoples did or did not "stop being practiced".  

[Bastemhet]

CuAnnan

Sophist

I'm not sure what you mean by it still being a living religion...what I mean when I say a religion is living is if it never stopped being practiced by a nation of people, like the Celtic trad.

Firstly, there was never a codified religious practice followed by the Celtic peoples. That would be ridiculous. That's like saying the tradition practiced by English speaking peoples.
Secondly, would you like to clarify whether you are claiming that the cultural practices of the Celtic peoples did or did not "stop being practiced".

I honestly don't know much about it, only what you've said yourself here. I'm not trying to start an argument with you about your tradition. If I said something erroneous it's because I either forgot what you said (has been a while since I read it) or I misinterpreted it. Either way you are the much more the authority in this matter than I am or ever will be. 3nodding

As for your secondly, this is what I typed in my above post:

Sophist

what I mean when I say a religion is living is if it never stopped being practiced by a nation of people, like the Celtic trad.

I honestly don't even know if it's accurately "nation of people" or "collection of people" or whatever, perhaps you can tell me.  

[Fiddlers Green]

So, does anyone actually care what the gods that are existant in these religions want?  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Sophist

I'm not sure what you mean by it still being a living religion...what I mean when I say a religion is living is if it never stopped being practiced by a nation of people, like the Celtic trad. From what I know, you're Kemetic Orthodox, right? Ms. Siuda created that brand of Kemetic recon in the late 1980's, as per the website.

What I mean is that KO is not an unbroken descendant of ancient Kemetic religion, nor is it a completely accurate transplant of ancient practices into the modern age, nor is it a completely new thing, but a melding of ancient practices, modern additions and interpretations. Perhaps "living religion" is not the right term to use, so if anyone has another suggestion I'd be happy to use that.

I think what I was going for was that the goal of reconstructionism isn't necessarily identical recreation, but I could be wrong.

Sophist

As an aside, I would like to have a discussion on whether having a divine Nisut is feasible right now, and also some things I've heard about the HoN that aren't very favorable...but I'll get to that in another post.

Please do, I'd love to discuss it. I'm actually not an official member so I have not accepted Rev. Siuda as my king or spiritual leader, and I have heard that there are criticisms of KO but not what those criticisms are.  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

So, does anyone actually care what the gods that are existant in these religions want?

I care greatly! Which is why I've been so concerned in other posts about a way to contact deities and be able to verify it. I think it is a disservice if I don't do research to see what they have wanted in the past, because I am not trying to connect to any deities solely for my personal gain. I understand it as a relationship, and as such, it only makes sense to be concerned about what the other needs.

I'm glad you brought this up. What is your take on it?  

[Bastemhet]

TheDisreputableDog

What I mean is that KO is not an unbroken descendant of ancient Kemetic religion, nor is it a completely accurate transplant of ancient practices into the modern age, nor is it a completely new thing, but a melding of ancient practices, modern additions and interpretations. Perhaps "living religion" is not the right term to use, so if anyone has another suggestion I'd be happy to use that.

I think what I was going for was that the goal of reconstructionism isn't necessarily identical recreation, but I could be wrong.

I see. That makes more sense. I googled a random page on Kemet.org and notice they themselves call it a living religion meaning that documents drawn up about the religion are subject to change. Here it says that at the top of the page in red.

Quote:

Please do, I'd love to discuss it. I'm actually not an official member so I have not accepted Rev. Siuda as my king or spiritual leader, and I have heard that there are criticisms of KO but not what those criticisms are.

Great! I'm hoping that discussion will pull the Kemetic reconstructionists, or eclectic pagans who honor Kemetic deities, or Modern Kemetics, or etc., out of the woodworks! xd I've since found other forums that are devoted solely to followers of Kemet but I like the diversity of opinion and knowledge in this guild. When I have time I'll summarize my findings and make a discussion post.  

[TeaDidikai]

CuAnnan

That's like saying the tradition practiced by English speaking peoples.

Capitalism. ninja