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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:05 am
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:00 am
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:34 am
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:00 am
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:57 am
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:16 am
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Stargirl8480 Priestley Stargirl8480 I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha. Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley. It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.That's true. even if Mary wasn't a virgin, it wasn't lust, and it wasn't sin. But lust is the driving force behind procreation and reproduction. Jesus says that lusting is adultery. Adultery is sin. This presents problems as to the nature of Jesus' conception and birth and has implications for his status.
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:10 pm
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:08 pm
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:43 pm
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Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
"Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel"
(which means, God with us). When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. ~ Matthew 1:18-25
According to Matthew, Jesus was born of the "virgin" Mary (verse 23). Matthew quoted Isaiah 7:14 as showing that this "virgin" birth fulfilled prophecy. Isaiah 7:14 says that a "virgin," or "young woman," shall "conceive and bear a son . . . Immanuel." The term in the original Hebrew is ambiguous. Yes, the Greek term parthenos can be used to refer to a young maiden. In the context of the passage, the Lord was encouraging Ahaz to ask for a sign, something remarkable that would indicate to him God's hand at work. "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep," God says to Ahaz; but Ahaz does not want to be presumptuous, so the Lord offers the sign. If all the Lord meant was "a young maiden will become pregnant and bear a son," that hardly seems a remarkable sign. Many young maidens became pregnant. Where is the "deep sign" demonstrating an act of God?
Another Hebrews word, bethulah, specifies "a woman who is a virgin"—that is, she has not had sexual intercourse. The Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) translators, nevertheless, translated ’almah as parthenos, which does denote a "virgin." And Matthew used the word parthenos when describing Mary. Both Matthew and Luke agree that a "virgin," Mary, conceived through the Holy Spirit and bore a son, Jesus. Matthew’s account is simpler and more direct, attributing the birth of the Messiah to divine origins and highlighting the significance of this birth—that Jesus is the Son of God.
Jewish people at that time seemed to have been convinced that the King they were going to gain would be of the seed of David, a human being in every sense of royal lineage. When Jesus claimed to be both the son of David and the Son of God, they accused Him of blasphemy. They expected Him to be of the royal line of David but apparently not to be deity, in human flesh. Humanly through the lineage of David He gains the right to rule the world, and from the standpoint of deity He gains the very essence of the nature of God by having been born without a human father through the agency of the Spirit of God Himself. His virgin birth, His substitutionary death, His bodily resurrection and His second coming are a package of deity, you cannot isolate any one of those and accept only that one and leave the rest, or vice versa, accept them all but one.
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Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:35 pm
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Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:27 am
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Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:36 am
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Priestley Stargirl8480 Priestley Stargirl8480 I was thinking of that myself recently. Haha. Whether she was or not, Jesus came of it. But I agree with Priestley. It certainly has implications. I mean, part of the reason we say that Jesus was perfect is because he had to have been perfect from the start in order to be a sinless sacrifice.That's true. even if Mary wasn't a virgin, it wasn't lust, and it wasn't sin. But lust is the driving force behind procreation and reproduction. Jesus says that lusting is adultery. Adultery is sin. This presents problems as to the nature of Jesus' conception and birth and has implications for his status.
So is all lust sinful? Lust is defined as "intense sexual desire". I would argue that we are intended to lust for our spouse. So is sex, even within marriage sinful?
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Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:33 pm
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Priestley Also, Monergism, you specified that the Greek "parthenos" means "young maiden". You specified that, in the Septuagint, "'almah" was translated as "parthenos" in Matthew which still means "young maiden" and not "virgin".
I don't believe so. Parthenos can be used to refer to a young maiden but its specifically the Greek word for "virgin."
NET Bible Translation Notes `almah, rendered in the Revised Version (British and American) by either "damsel" (Ps 68:25), "maiden" (so usually, Ex 2:8, etc.), or "virgin" with margin "maiden" (Song 1:3; 6:8; Isa 7:14). The word means simply "young woman" and only the context can give it the force "virgin." This force, however, seems required by the contrasts in Song 6:8, but in 1:3 "virgin" throws the accent in the wrong place. The controversies regarding Isa 7:14 are endless, but Septuagint took `almah as meaning "virgin" (parthenos).
Priestley You make no mention that Hebrew scriptures use "bethulah", meaning "a woman who is a sexual virgin" in Isaiah. What relevance does this word have to the text you mentioned? Bethulah sometimes refer to "a virgin" in a number of passages in the Old Testament but it does not necessarily always mean "a virgin." For an example in Genesis 24:16, "The girl was very beautiful, a virgin (bethulah), and no man had had relations with her; and she went down to the spring and filled her jar and came up." (NASB) Rebekah, the daughter of Bethuel is referred to as a "bethulah" but the text adds the qualifying clause "no man had had relations with her." Such a qualifying clause would be unnecessary if "bethulah" unambiguously meant "virgin." Later in the same chapter, Rebekah is referred to as an "almah" (verse 43) with no qualifying clause.
NET Bible Translation Notes bethulah, from a root meaning "separated," is "a woman living apart," i.e. "in her father's house," and hence "a virgin." Bethulah seems to have been the technical term for "virgin," as appears from such a combination as na`arah bhethulah, "a damsel, a virgin," in Dt 22:23,28, etc. An apparent exception is Joel 1:8, "Lament like a virgin bethulah .... for the husband of her youth," but the word is probably due to a wish to allude to the title "virgin daughter of Zion" (the translation "a betrothed maiden" is untrue to Hebrew sentiment). and the use of "virgin" for a city (Isa 37:22, etc.; compare Isa 23:12; 47:1) probably means "unsubdued," though, as often, a title may persist after its meaning is gone (Jer 31:4). The King James Version and the English Revised Version frequently render bethulah by "maiden" or "maid" (Jdg 19:24, etc.), but the American Standard Revised Version has used "virgin" throughout, despite the awkwardness of such a phrase as "young men and virgins" (Ps 148:12).
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Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:52 pm
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