Regarding Culture, and Entitlement

[Adalyna]

I was reluctant to post a new thread at first but I feel like its time for me to put this out there, and I don't know, its certainly a stupid question, but I feel like I need more help than just a one or two post answer. I guess that's asking a lot but I'll see where this takes me. First of all I'm pretty old at being new to all of this. I've been fluffy for a long time it seems like, though perhaps progressively less so, but the major turning point I think for me was coming across the notion of culture in a whole new light. Really respecting cultures isn't exclusive to being a pagan, so I feel like this should be my starting point before even trying to find my path or expanding on my beliefs or anything else.

For starters the notion of a closed culture is still pretty foreign and new to me. Also how exactly would one define culture rape? What exactly is meant by Entitlement, I know this all sounds pretty stupid but, I'm really at square one. I'm one of those Americans that was raised into thinking wanting to learn about a culture is respecting a culture, so when I first came across the idea of a closed culture it was actually quite a bit of a shock to me. Where should I even start? I don't know where to look because I don't know what subjects are and aren't okay to learn about. For example the idea that I shouldn't be able to learn about Celtic things because I am not a Celt is pretty new to me. Or am I still not understanding it. I'm not posting this so I can get into a fight about my rights to what I want when I want it, I'm just not sure I 100% grasp the whole idea. Sorry for the trouble and thank you for allowing me into the guild as of today by the way.  

[Cunning Witch Angus]

I think (know that I am guessing here, but I think I am accurate based on what I have gleaned from reading Tea and Cu and others) Culture Rape is when one individual or multiple individuals take certain, incomplete ideas from one culture and call themselves by that culture when they are clearly NOT part of that culture.

For example: The Lakota shamans declaring war on "plastic shamans." People that call themselves Lakota when they obviously don't live in that culture and don't practice the same traditions as that culture they just believe they are of that culture because they have a vague idea as to what it is.

It is the same with the Celts, or Gaels. Cu can tell you more about that though as he IS a Gael. Or Gaul...one of the two, can't remember.

As for Wica, well...that should be quiet obvious by now. Young teens swallowing the slanderous lies that are given in books by complete idiots without any understanding of the true Wica because they did not choose to read the books given in the bibliography!

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But I do have a question for Cu, if he looks at this thread, my mum is from Scotland, born and raised in Glasgow. Does that make her Celt or...?

And does that make her descendants Celt?  

[Adalyna]

Heh Cu was the one who brought me around to this in ED when i was being a raving idiot. That said I'm still in the "recovering raving idiot" stage. I think the area where it makes the most sense to me is the Wicca sense, at least in terms of culture rape. I mean it makes perfect sense to me now, that if I came into here claiming to be a Wicca, I'd be in the wrong, because well I won't say I know much about what Wicca is, I most certainly have gained a pretty firm grasp of what it is not. That said, let's say I wanted to learn more about Wicca, but I didn't really want to be one. Well I've heard people say Wicca is a closed tradition, so I does that mean I should refrain from researching Wicca, even from legitimate sources, unless I've been initiated? And this is where it starts getting kinda foggy for me.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

When it comes down to it, there's nothing inherently wrong with learning about a closed culture (unless it's aspects that aren't available to the public, i.e. oathbound material).

In short, as long as you're learning for legitimate sources you should be fine.

To answer your OP:

Culture Rape: Taking parts of a practice out of their cultural context, usually attributed to closed cultures. This would include misappropriation of titles or claiming what you practice is part of closed culture A, when it is not.

Entitlement: The idea that one is entitled, by right, to have access to anything they want. For instance, an American claiming their freedom of religion entitles them to hold claim to a closed culture/religion they are not a part of.

Simply put, in reference to the Gods of the Gael, they have very specific oaths in place that link them with the Gael, and only the Gael. So claiming that they've broken their oaths for you is, quite obviously, slandering them.  

[Adalyna]

I see. As I learn more about it it doesn't sound as bad as it originally did. I can't say I grasp this 100% but I think I'm getting there. For example, as talking about the Irish, it's not taboo to learn about Ireland, its taboo to learn about Irish SECRETS. I use the term secrets for lack of a better word, Ie: including oathbound things between gods and their people, but not only this. Unless of course I'm one of the people included in said oath.

Does this sound like I'm getting it or am I still kinda off?

How then to avoid stumbling across something that SHOULDN'T be public information and has been shared inaccurately with the public. Legitimate sources should be a DUH I guess but what if you don't know enough about the topic to know where to find things that are legitimate or not?  

[TatteredAngel]

Your questions aren't at all stupid. It's hard coming from some particular ways of thinking to a more respectful way of looking at culture.

Here's some ways to start breaking it down:

Learning about a culture is good and fine, and often helpful. If parts of that culture are closed or off-limits, those from whom you are learning will draw that line, and then it's your responsibility to respect their silence on the matter.

The sticky situations happen when you start appropriating pieces of a culture that are not there for the taking, and when you start claiming ties that you do not legitimately have.

Here's my (always a bit goofy) example:

I live in the American southwest, and have for many years. Specifically, I have lived in New Mexico. Because New Mexico is an open culture, and because I meet the criteria of having lived here and come to understand the generic culture of the state, I am allowed to call myself New Mexican.

The actor Val Kilmer owns a ranch near our capital city. He has for a number of years. His interaction with generic state culture is considered by some to be questionable, and his time spent here is also questionable. Still, it's an open culture. He's had the ranch here for more years than I've been here, claims to love the state, and he's allowed to call himself a New Mexican, since he's not doing anything glaringly un-New Mexican, and fits the bare minimum criteria of living here a lot.

Open culture doesn't mean so open that you don't have to know what you're talking about, though. Someone who doesn't live in the state and who has never lived in the state is not a New Mexican because they haven't done anything that makes them so. So open culture still requires an understanding of what makes up that culture.

So let's talk closed culture. Carrying my example, I am a New Mexican, and a lot of New Mexicans are Native American. I'm from northern European stock, completely. There is not a drop of Native blood in me, to my knowledge. I can choose a culture, say, Zuni, and learn about it. I can talk to members of the Zuni tribe, I could go hang out on the reservation. However, Zuni culture is closed. I cannot participate in certain events and particulars within their culture, even if I can learn about those things, because I am not a Zuni, and will not suddenly become a Zuni by sheer force of will or desire. If any parts of Zuni practice are open to me, it's going to take a member of the tribe to tell me what I'm allowed to practice.

Here's where we get to the way that a false sense of entitlement muddies the waters and makes things ugly. I could take my very limited knowledge of Zuni culture, go and buy a Zuni-carved animal fetish, and do some crude facsimile of their fetish magic. That would be a crappy thing for me to do, because I'm taking limited knowledge about a closed culture and pretty much playing pretend with it. Even if I learned more about the process, I'd still be an outsider butting in where I don't belong. My sense of entitlement "I know about this and I can buy a fetish, so why shouldn't I do it?" has led me into grossly disrespecting a culture.

Muddying the waters even further is that not all closed cultures play nice with one another, either. In a perfect world, they would, but that whole entitlement thing gets in the way. A Zuni friend of mine accuses the Navajo of outright culture rape, and yet the Navajo are themselves a closed culture that feels perfectly justified in using the aspects of other Native cultures that they do.


All in all, your best tools are research, talking to people who are representative of various cultures, and respect. One main problem we see is people who try to rip the practices from a culture before learning anything about it. ((In New Mexico, we put green chile in menu items where you would not expect to ever find such a thing. I have to say, I would get immense amusement over seeing someone try to take this practice out of context. 4laugh )) Tread lightly and with respect, and I guarantee you will start to learn what you can and cannot incorporate, and you will be doing so in a way that makes your interactions with the cultures you are investigating a positive thing.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

Asahi Sara

I see. As I learn more about it it doesn't sound as bad as it originally did. I can't say I grasp this 100% but I think I'm getting there. For example, as talking about the Irish, it's not taboo to learn about Ireland, its taboo to learn about Irish SECRETS. I use the term secrets for lack of a better word, Ie: including oathbound things between gods and their people, but not only this. Unless of course I'm one of the people included in said oath.

Does this sound like I'm getting it or am I still kinda off?

How then to avoid stumbling across something that SHOULDN'T be public information and has been shared inaccurately with the public. Legitimate sources should be a DUH I guess but what if you don't know enough about the topic to know where to find things that are legitimate or not?

Well, for one thing, I"d like to clear up the discrepancy between oathbound action and oathbound information. The oaths of the Wica for instance bind certain information from being revealed, the oaths mentioned of the Gael and their Gods deal, primarily with "I will/won't do X" (I don't know the details so I won't go into it too deep).

For a quick example though, in my path there is information that is bound by oath, and action that is bound by oath, under both circumstances I'd use the term "oathbound" but you'd have to understand which I was referring to primarily by context.

As for legitimate sources, at the end of the day, you're not bound by their oaths, you're under no direct obligation (except perhaps a moral one) to not learn about oathbound information if it's offered. Personally I find it abhorrent, but I acknowledge there are going to be situations where I stumble upon it by accident.

Really, your best bet is to ask a few people who know more in the field than you do. I'm sure scorplett, Tea, and a few of the others could give you some slightly better advice, being a fair bit more seasoned than I.  

[Gho the Girl]

Angus of the Crooked Way

I think (know that I am guessing here, but I think I am accurate based on what I have gleaned from reading Tea and Cu and others) Culture Rape is when one individual or multiple individuals take certain, incomplete ideas from one culture and call themselves by that culture when they are clearly NOT part of that culture.

For example: The Lakota shamans declaring war on "plastic shamans." People that call themselves Lakota when they obviously don't live in that culture and don't practice the same traditions as that culture they just believe they are of that culture because they have a vague idea as to what it is.

It is the same with the Celts, or Gaels. Cu can tell you more about that though as he IS a Gael. Or Gaul...one of the two, can't remember.

As for Wica, well...that should be quiet obvious by now. Young teens swallowing the slanderous lies that are given in books by complete idiots without any understanding of the true Wica because they did not choose to read the books given in the bibliography!

Just a note: Native American Medicine Men aren't shamans, as the term "Shaman" properly refers to Indo-Turkic otherworld spiritual workers. Other than that, your post is fine 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Before I post anything else, Tattered, your post is spot on. Good job.

Asahi Sara

I was reluctant to post a new thread at first but I feel like its time for me to put this out there, and I don't know, its certainly a stupid question, but I feel like I need more help than just a one or two post answer. I guess that's asking a lot but I'll see where this takes me. First of all I'm pretty old at being new to all of this. I've been fluffy for a long time it seems like, though perhaps progressively less so, but the major turning point I think for me was coming across the notion of culture in a whole new light. Really respecting cultures isn't exclusive to being a pagan, so I feel like this should be my starting point before even trying to find my path or expanding on my beliefs or anything else.

You're growing and learning. That's something to be proud of. 3nodding

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For starters the notion of a closed culture is still pretty foreign and new to me.

Common problem.

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Also how exactly would one define culture rape?

Culture Rape:

The forcable removal and recontextualization of the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations within an alien framew

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ork.

What exactly is meant by Entitlement, I know this all sounds pretty stupid but, I'm really at square one.

Entitlement is a sense of obligation for an external group to grant you your desire. In some cases, entitlement is justified. You're entitled to the same protection under the law that anyone else is. In the US, you're entitled to a free basic education as is offered by the public school system and the standards afforded thereof.

In other cases, you're not entitled to things- such as my iPod or car.

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I'm one of those Americans that was raised into thinking wanting to learn about a culture is respecting a culture, so when I first came across the idea of a closed culture it was actually quite a bit of a shock to me. Where should I even start? I don't know where to look because I don't know what subjects are and aren't okay to learn about. For example the idea that I shouldn't be able to learn about Celtic things because I am not a Celt is pretty new to me. Or am I still not understanding it.

Learning and participation are two different things. As is learning and claiming to be part of what you have learned.

Angus of the Crooked Way

It is the same with the Celts, or Gaels. Cu can tell you more about that though as he IS a Gael. Or Gaul...one of the two, can't remember.

Cu is a Gael.

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But I do have a question for Cu, if he looks at this thread, my mum is from Scotland, born and raised in Glasgow. Does that make her Celt or...?

Depends... is she a Scot or something else? I mean, there are Rroma and Indians born and raised in Scotland all the time.

Asahi Sara

That said, let's say I wanted to learn more about Wicca, but I didn't really want to be one. Well I've heard people say Wicca is a closed tradition, so I does that mean I should refrain from researching Wicca, even from legitimate sources, unless I've been initiated? And this is where it starts getting kinda foggy for me.

Learning about something isn't wrong unless the people you want to learn about want you to go away.

Asahi Sara

For example, as talking about the Irish, it's not taboo to learn about Ireland, its taboo to learn about Irish SECRETS.

The sense of entitlement- that the Gael are obligated to hand over their secrets would be wrong. But more to the point, calling yourself a Gael would be culture rape- you aren't a Gael.

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Does this sound like I'm getting it or am I still kinda off?

Still a little off.

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How then to avoid stumbling across something that SHOULDN'T be public information and has been shared inaccurately with the public.

That can be tricky. There is information out there in different traditions that was published by oathbreakers and liars.

Best to start by learning about the tradition and then look from there to see what standards that tradition or culture would expect from you. Best way to do that is to ask people who belong to said group.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDikai

oathbreakers

Grrk. Reminds me.

I need to figure out when exactly the leaves in the adirondacks all turn. Also, which lake I was at.

And is it odd I'm writing letters to a deity I don't venerate anymore?  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

And is it odd I'm writing letters to a deity I don't venerate anymore?

Don't see why it would be.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

And is it odd I'm writing letters to a deity I don't venerate anymore?

Don't see why it would be.

I dunno. It just seems kinda weird to. Or awkward rather.

What I mean is, it's sort of like I ran away from home, and didn't speak with my parents for a long time, and then realised what I did was wrong, and now we're talking again.

Maybe it's just how these sorts of things start out. . .  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

I dunno. It just seems kinda weird to. Or awkward rather.

I still pour mead for Odin and Loki.

Quote:

What I mean is, it's sort of like I ran away from home, and didn't speak with my parents for a long time, and then realised what I did was wrong, and now we're talking again.

Maybe it's just how these sorts of things start out. . .

Nice analogy.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

I dunno. It just seems kinda weird to. Or awkward rather.

I still pour mead for Odin and Loki.

Quote:

What I mean is, it's sort of like I ran away from home, and didn't speak with my parents for a long time, and then realised what I did was wrong, and now we're talking again.

Maybe it's just how these sorts of things start out. . .

Nice analogy.

Odd thing (or maybe no) once I did, things in my life seem to be getting better. Like that callback from Borders happened only days after I started writing those letters, when I applied more than a month ago.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Too early to tell.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

I dunno. It just seems kinda weird to. Or awkward rather.

I still pour mead for Odin and Loki.

Quote:

What I mean is, it's sort of like I ran away from home, and didn't speak with my parents for a long time, and then realised what I did was wrong, and now we're talking again.

Maybe it's just how these sorts of things start out. . .

Nice analogy.

Odd thing (or maybe no) once I did, things in my life seem to be getting better. Like that callback from Borders happened only days after I started writing those letters, when I applied more than a month ago.

Or maybe I'm wrong. Too early to tell.

Being coincidental doesn't mean something doesn't have meaning. ~shrugs~