Wicca: my disclaimer and adjoining statement

[PrometheanSet]

As those who have read my "teenage high priest/ess syndrome" thread, can attest, I made some controversial statements about the history of Wicca.

That is not to say that it is not a valid faith; however, with such a religion that is so new to the world-at-large, and with so many different branches, it is important to keep things in focus.

As with all branches of Paganism, its important that Wiccans honestly discern their roots and remain true to them. Even the Reconstructionists are having issues with this - hence, I set forward the idea that academic research (or, membership in groups founded on such) is the last bastion of the Paganism we really hope to discover. I've heard that there is a practitioner of Celtic beliefs here that fits this description.

The history I set forward attributes Wicca to a tradition of Western Mysticism that stems all the way back into the middle ages (Through Thelema, we can trace to the Golden Dawn, then through that to the various folk mystical ideas in seemingly innumerable European locales in the middle ages. From there, its a whole other discussion!)

Instead, I would argue that if one wants a roadmap of the sorts of spiritual experiences that initiation into Wicca should bring, look into Crowley's Thelema.

No, don't go join the OTO. For one, they're a bureaucratic organization that has lost touch with the original intent of its creation. Also, there's a financial commitment to learning from their College/Temple of Thelema. Lets not get into the whole mess of other issues facing these folks - with some of them, I could be sued for publicizing what's going on (but that doesn't stop you from digging around on the internet if you're that interested).

You may even find some similarities with Golden Dawn writings, spliced with a bit of meditation; that's really all that Crowley did, but streamline it a bit.

If you don't find these similarities, there's a couple of things that might be going on: 1. Its a coven that doesn't want you to know that they don't know; 2. you're not there yet or 3. Its a coven that's developed so far away from the Gardnerian Wicca by drawing on other traditions that it is something else altogether, in which case I have to ask this:


Why are they both called Wicca? I seriously want to know.  

[too2sweet]

The thing is, there aren't that many different branches of Wicca...there are many different branches of neo-paganism, that claim to be Wiccan.

Of actual lineaged traditions there are only a handful or so, Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, and Central Valley (which I think encompasses some of the Kingston and Blue Star lines as well). I may be missing a couple, but otherwise, that is about it.

Wicca being orthopraxic, if they are not practicing the core material, as it was laid out by Gardner (with very few exceptions), then it's not Wicca. Since that core material is oathbound, the only way to learn it is through initiation into a properly lineaged coven. There are many groups out there that may be saying that they are Wiccan, but more often than not, they are simply misappropriating the title.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrometheanSet

As with all branches of Paganism, its important that Wiccans honestly discern their roots and remain true to them.

Since it's an orthopraxic tradition- I'm not seeing a problem with this.

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Even the Reconstructionists are having issues with this - hence, I set forward the idea that academic research (or, membership in groups founded on such) is the last bastion of the Paganism we really hope to discover. I've heard that there is a practitioner of Celtic beliefs here that fits this description.

You really have no clue as to what you are talking about do you? confused

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The history I set forward attributes Wicca to a tradition of Western Mysticism that stems all the way back into the middle ages (Through Thelema, we can trace to the Golden Dawn, then through that to the various folk mystical ideas in seemingly innumerable European locales in the middle ages. From there, its a whole other discussion!)

Problem- Thelema isn't Wica in the same way that Judaism isn't Islam.

Having been influenced by a predecessor doesn't make you one and the same.

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Instead, I would argue that if one wants a roadmap of the sorts of spiritual experiences that initiation into Wicca should bring, look into Crowley's Thelema.

I'd say ******** Thelema. You want to know about Wica, look at ******** Wica.

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No, don't go join the OTO. For one, they're a bureaucratic organization that has lost touch with the original intent of its creation.

Hmmm... the last time I heard such an offhanded dismissal, it was by someone the Vortex Camp had rejected for initiation based on their personal short comings.

Not saying this is your situation- just saying it's proof by assertion and an appeal to authority. The idea that the OTO isn't fulfilling it's nature is a bit silly to me.

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Also, there's a financial commitment to learning from their College/Temple of Thelema.

HOSHIT! You mean someone might feel it is appropriate to be compensated for their time and effort?

WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE!?

Did you miss the memo that Wica is not Thelema?

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Why are they both called Wicca? I seriously want to know.

Because people perpetuate appeals to popularity when it comes to naming conventions. People have senses of entitlement and don't care if they misrepresent themselves if it makes them look more established/cooler. People are ignorant as ********...

Did I mention that Wica is not Thelema?  

[PrometheanSet]

TeaDidikai

PrometheanSet

As with all branches of Paganism, its important that Wiccans honestly discern their roots and remain true to them.

Since it's an orthopraxic tradition- I'm not seeing a problem with this.

Quote:

Even the Reconstructionists are having issues with this - hence, I set forward the idea that academic research (or, membership in groups founded on such) is the last bastion of the Paganism we really hope to discover. I've heard that there is a practitioner of Celtic beliefs here that fits this description.

You really have no clue as to what you are talking about do you? confused

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The history I set forward attributes Wicca to a tradition of Western Mysticism that stems all the way back into the middle ages (Through Thelema, we can trace to the Golden Dawn, then through that to the various folk mystical ideas in seemingly innumerable European locales in the middle ages. From there, its a whole other discussion!)

Problem- Thelema isn't Wica in the same way that Judaism isn't Islam.

Having been influenced by a predecessor doesn't make you one and the same.

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Instead, I would argue that if one wants a roadmap of the sorts of spiritual experiences that initiation into Wicca should bring, look into Crowley's Thelema.

I'd say ******** Thelema. You want to know about Wica, look at ******** Wica.

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No, don't go join the OTO. For one, they're a bureaucratic organization that has lost touch with the original intent of its creation.

Hmmm... the last time I heard such an offhanded dismissal, it was by someone the Vortex Camp had rejected for initiation based on their personal short comings.

Not saying this is your situation- just saying it's proof by assertion and an appeal to authority. The idea that the OTO isn't fulfilling it's nature is a bit silly to me.

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Also, there's a financial commitment to learning from their College/Temple of Thelema.

HOSHIT! You mean someone might feel it is appropriate to be compensated for their time and effort?

WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE!?

Did you miss the memo that Wica is not Thelema?

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Why are they both called Wicca? I seriously want to know.

Because people perpetuate appeals to popularity when it comes to naming conventions. People have senses of entitlement and don't care if they misrepresent themselves if it makes them look more established/cooler. People are ignorant as ********...

Did I mention that Wica is not Thelema?

Did I mention you have no proof for what you say? Did you contact that author yet?

Have you looked at the similarities between Wicca and Thelema? Do it for yourself, I'm not here to do everything for you. I'm only here to point out a way for possible development.

As for compensation: I meant to imply that its a bit more of a cost than merely "compensation". If you didn't get that, or I didn't make that clear enough, I apologize.

And a lineage and a history is just that. You are not your mom, nor your entire family history. Read a book, child.

The most successful revivalist/reconstructionist religions have been those based on some form of academic scholarship. The Kemetic Orthodoxy in the US being one supreme example.

Orthopraxic or not, when wiccans want to claim victims of "Burning times" based on poor scholarship and misquoted, mistaken history (misrecorded by those leading the inquisition and so on), it becomes an issue when the one religion most identified in the popular mind by the word "pagan" want to rewrite history. We all come off as nutjobs.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

PrometheanSet

Have you looked at the similarities between Wicca and Thelema? Do it for yourself, I'm not here to do everything for you. I'm only here to point out a way for possible development.

There are similarities between Judaism and Islam. Doesn't mean that if you want to know about Islam you should learn about Judaism. If you want to know about Islam, learn about....Islam neutral

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As for compensation: I meant to imply that its a bit more of a cost than merely "compensation". If you didn't get that, or I didn't make that clear enough, I apologize.

People should be able to claim fair compensation for their time as well. Simply put, I wouldn't see any real problem with Catholic Priests charging for confession.

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And a lineage and a history is just that. You are not your mom, nor your entire family history. Read a book, child.

I...can't even tell what you're referencing here

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Orthopraxic or not, when wiccans want to claim victims of "Burning times" based on poor scholarship and misquoted, mistaken history (misrecorded by those leading the inquisition and so on), it becomes an issue when the one religion most identified in the popular mind by the word "pagan" want to rewrite history. We all come off as nutjobs.

I must take issue with this. Whilst I have seen many fluffy bunnies claiming to be Wiccan, I am yet to see a lineaged Wiccan claim such. In fact, the only Wiccans I know balk at the idea.  

[PrometheanSet]

Cyrus the Elder

PrometheanSet

Have you looked at the similarities between Wicca and Thelema? Do it for yourself, I'm not here to do everything for you. I'm only here to point out a way for possible development.

There are similarities between Judaism and Islam. Doesn't mean that if you want to know about Islam you should learn about Judaism. If you want to know about Islam, learn about....Islam neutral

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As for compensation: I meant to imply that its a bit more of a cost than merely "compensation". If you didn't get that, or I didn't make that clear enough, I apologize.

People should be able to claim fair compensation for their time as well. Simply put, I wouldn't see any real problem with Catholic Priests charging for confession.

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And a lineage and a history is just that. You are not your mom, nor your entire family history. Read a book, child.

I...can't even tell what you're referencing here

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Orthopraxic or not, when wiccans want to claim victims of "Burning times" based on poor scholarship and misquoted, mistaken history (misrecorded by those leading the inquisition and so on), it becomes an issue when the one religion most identified in the popular mind by the word "pagan" want to rewrite history. We all come off as nutjobs.

I must take issue with this. Whilst I have seen many fluffy bunnies claiming to be Wiccan, I am yet to see a lineaged Wiccan claim such. In fact, the only Wiccans I know balk at the idea.

It would be better framed as the difference between Christians and Jews, in my opinion. You know, one knows not to eat certain shellfish (I forget the verse....) and the other forgot that the verse is even in their bible.
Same ten commandments, just with a different bit of language... the beatitudes add a different emphasis, but still stick to the same idea.
You know, the religion that started out as a branch of the other?

The difference is, even though certain movements in Christianity have pushed them to lose touch with the core of their beliefs (act now, send us a hundred dollars for our prayer museum, and we'll send you an official Jerry Falwell autographed bible! Of course its the King James Version! It comes with a free Pat Robertson quotes bookmark, absolutely free!) they're established and structured enough to get a hold of the originals.

If Christians had a need, they could go to the Jewish texts to reconstruct as much as they could from them. Then again, the New International Version did that already, with more than just Jewish texts.

With Wicca... I haven't seen it that way. And unless you want to show me a different history for Wicca that meets the standards of reason, I'll still argue that the root of Wicca has a lot in common with the core ideas in Thelema.

Where you couldn't tell what I was referencing, it was someone else's witty comeback that showed yet more misreading my post.

As for the compensation bit - I'm trying to find a way to politely say that unless you've got a good-sized pile of money to burn quickly, then you could expect the Thelemite establishment to charge you into the poorhouse. I've looked into it.

As for your lineaged Wiccans balking at the idea of some "Burning Times" falsehood - good! We need to encourage folks to this form of Wicca, not the pop-culture knock off. However, I have seen lineages form independently of any authenticity - yay college fluffies!

So while I'll back off from pushing it so forcefully, I will still suggest the Thelema thing for Wicca.

Oh, and it would cut into the reason for tithing if a Priest charged for confession. That, and this strange thing happened during the protestant reformation - Christians decided that even the poor should be able to have their sins forgiven! While I agree with you for most folks here in the states... elsewhere might fall into the same old pitfalls that lead to Lutheranism.  

[Cyrus the Elder]

PrometheanSet

It would be better framed as the difference between Christians and Jews, in my opinion. You know, one knows not to eat certain shellfish (I forget the verse....) and the other forgot that the verse is even in their bible.
Same ten commandments, just with a different bit of language... the beatitudes add a different emphasis, but still stick to the same idea.
You know, the religion that started out as a branch of the other?

Well, I'd say that since the core, itself, has changed between Christianity and Judaism, it's not much of a difference.

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The difference is, even though certain movements in Christianity have pushed them to lose touch with the core of their beliefs (act now, send us a hundred dollars for our prayer museum, and we'll send you an official Jerry Falwell autographed bible! Of course its the King James Version! It comes with a free Pat Robertson quotes bookmark, absolutely free!) they're established and structured enough to get a hold of the originals.

If Christians had a need, they could go to the Jewish texts to reconstruct as much as they could from them. Then again, the New International Version did that already, with more than just Jewish texts.

That's all well and good, but the Jewish texts are primarily...Jewish. Once you ignore the New Testament, it stops being Christianity.

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With Wicca... I haven't seen it that way. And unless you want to show me a different history for Wicca that meets the standards of reason, I'll still argue that the root of Wicca has a lot in common with the core ideas in Thelema.

I don't think anyone here would argue that they don't share aspects, just why they share the aspects. And the general consensus, which I agree with, is that Gardner was a member of the OTO, and possibly paid Crowley to write parts of the rituals and the like.

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As for the compensation bit - I'm trying to find a way to politely say that unless you've got a good-sized pile of money to burn quickly, then you could expect the Thelemite establishment to charge you into the poorhouse. I've looked into it.

And that's their right. They obviously see their time as very expensive.

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As for your lineaged Wiccans balking at the idea of some "Burning Times" falsehood - good! We need to encourage folks to this form of Wicca, not the pop-culture knock off. However, I have seen lineages form independently of any authenticity - yay college fluffies!

Well, most here do encourage that. And there's a general rule with lineages, if it doesn't trace to Gerald Gardner, it's bullshit. Or, in the case of Silver Ravenwolf, if it's laughably hilariously false to the point where they've got men initiating men and woman initiating women, it's bullshit.

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So while I'll back off from pushing it so forcefully, I will still suggest the Thelema thing for Wicca.

And I really doubt anyone would disagree that they do share aspects. I see it as more of a dispute between "They were both influenced by Crowley, and thus have similarities" and "One was directly derived from the other"

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Oh, and it would cut into the reason for tithing if a Priest charged for confession. That, and this strange thing happened during the protestant reformation - Christians decided that even the poor should be able to have their sins forgiven! While I agree with you for most folks here in the states... elsewhere might fall into the same old pitfalls that lead to Lutheranism.

Hmm, I thought that the reformation had less to do with "poor people", and more to do with the fact that the Catholic Church was literally giving people permits to sin their arses off as long as they paid them before-hand.

It wasn't that even the poor should be forgiven, but more to do with "Why are you saying it's ok to sin, then charging people money to get away with it?"

Anyhoo, that was more of a personal stance, and not really advice.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrometheanSet

Did I mention you have no proof for what you say?

Tsk tsk. Shifting the Burden of Proof? I mean- I don't expect much from you, but for someone who touts research and logic so much, you would think you wouldn't be so eager to pull this s**t.

My sources as to Wica's orthopraxic nature include the words of different members of the Wica.

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Have you looked at the similarities between Wicca and Thelema? Do it for yourself, I'm not here to do everything for you. I'm only here to point out a way for possible development.

I have. Long before I ever met you. You have to understand- my introduction to Thelema was through the leader of the Vortex camp- someone who studied directly under an initiate of Alex Saunders.

What you and the author fails to grasp is that 1) Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical is not the Gardnerian Book of Shadows. Doreen was challenged by Gardner to "do better". She had an intense dislike for the reputation Crowley had and she removed a crap ton of his obvious influence replacing it with something that was more akin to imagery used in the Isles prior to Christendom.

Not only that, but Gardner had kinks that weren't part of Thelema. The whole universal Skyclad thing etc. I don't know about the Gnostic Masses you may have attended, but I was fully clothed for the ones I have been to.

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And a lineage and a history is just that. You are not your mom, nor your entire family history. Read a book, child.

Let me make this perfectly clear. You call me child again, and I shall report you not only to the Captain of the Guild, but to the Moderators for flaming and trolling if such is appropriate. Are we clear? The only sense in which I am a child is that I was born of my parents. You aren't them- you don't get to call me that. Are we clear?

Lineage in the case of the Wica is the means to pass along the orthopraxic nature of the tradition.

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The most successful revivalist/reconstructionist religions have been those based on some form of academic scholarship. The Kemetic Orthodoxy in the US being one supreme example.

What does this have to do with either Cu or The Wica? They aren't reconstructionists nor are they revivalists. They're a completely new cult. Their founder made some claims in order to make the cult seem better established than it was. None of the Wica I know claim his use of Murray's thesis was anything more than a ploy.

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Orthopraxic or not, when wiccans want to claim victims of "Burning times" based on poor scholarship and misquoted, mistaken history (misrecorded by those leading the inquisition and so on), it becomes an issue when the one religion most identified in the popular mind by the word "pagan" want to rewrite history.

I have never met a member of the Wica who has claimed that. I have met several posers who have claimed that- but they aren't of the Wica.

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We all come off as nutjobs.

Who is we? I ask, because not only do I think the whole association fallacy is bullshit- but I'm not a pagan.  

[PrometheanSet]

TeaDidikai

PrometheanSet

Did I mention you have no proof for what you say?

Tsk tsk. Shifting the Burden of Proof? I mean- I don't expect much from you, but for someone who touts research and logic so much, you would think you wouldn't be so eager to pull this s**t.

My sources as to Wica's orthopraxic nature include the words of different members of the Wica.

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Have you looked at the similarities between Wicca and Thelema? Do it for yourself, I'm not here to do everything for you. I'm only here to point out a way for possible development.

I have. Long before I ever met you. You have to understand- my introduction to Thelema was through the leader of the Vortex camp- someone who studied directly under an initiate of Alex Saunders.

What you and the author fails to grasp is that 1) Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical is not the Gardnerian Book of Shadows. Doreen was challenged by Gardner to "do better". She had an intense dislike for the reputation Crowley had and she removed a crap ton of his obvious influence replacing it with something that was more akin to imagery used in the Isles prior to Christendom.

Not only that, but Gardner had kinks that weren't part of Thelema. The whole universal Skyclad thing etc. I don't know about the Gnostic Masses you may have attended, but I was fully clothed for the ones I have been to.

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And a lineage and a history is just that. You are not your mom, nor your entire family history. Read a book, child.

Let me make this perfectly clear. You call me child again, and I shall report you not only to the Captain of the Guild, but to the Moderators for flaming and trolling if such is appropriate. Are we clear? The only sense in which I am a child is that I was born of my parents. You aren't them- you don't get to call me that. Are we clear?

Lineage in the case of the Wica is the means to pass along the orthopraxic nature of the tradition.

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The most successful revivalist/reconstructionist religions have been those based on some form of academic scholarship. The Kemetic Orthodoxy in the US being one supreme example.

What does this have to do with either Cu or The Wica? They aren't reconstructionists nor are they revivalists. They're a completely new cult. Their founder made some claims in order to make the cult seem better established than it was. None of the Wica I know claim his use of Murray's thesis was anything more than a ploy.

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Orthopraxic or not, when wiccans want to claim victims of "Burning times" based on poor scholarship and misquoted, mistaken history (misrecorded by those leading the inquisition and so on), it becomes an issue when the one religion most identified in the popular mind by the word "pagan" want to rewrite history.

I have never met a member of the Wica who has claimed that. I have met several posers who have claimed that- but they aren't of the Wica.

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We all come off as nutjobs.

Who is we? I ask, because not only do I think the whole association fallacy is bullshit- but I'm not a pagan.

For someone on such a high pedestal, you have yet to show me any good reason why you're there.

Oh, fine, don't share any info. Don't contribute anything. Don't bother to share anything at all about documentation, which you apparently don't need here. The need for documentation arises from this pop-feux-Wicca that spreads outright falsehoods, and the fact that an interested non-initiate could confuse them with more rationally minded folks. There is no one more suited to clean up that mess than fellow pagans.

I apologize for calling you a child, when you claim otherwise. I have yet to find you in the intro thread to discern such useful information.

Oh, and by all means, go ahead and just sit there and spit venom like a spoiled child while the rest of us have gotten over it all enough to find some civility, or appear to be giving each other some space. Now if you please, I was beginning to have a reasonably well-mannered conversation with another member. You know, sharing similarities and relating information?  

[TeaDidikai]

PrometheanSet

For someone on such a high pedestal, you have yet to show me any good reason why you're there.

This is pretty much a text book example of projection, just so you know.

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Oh, fine, don't share any info. Don't contribute anything. Don't bother to share anything at all about documentation, which you apparently don't need here.

I provided you with an explanation. Do you really want me to go back and cite a lineaged member of the Wica explaining the same thing in different words?

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The need for documentation arises from this pop-feux-Wicca that spreads outright falsehoods. There is no one more suited to clean up the mess they make than fellow pagans, you know.

I'm not pagan. I also don't really care about how people view Wica outside of specific situations.

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Go ahead and just sit there and spit venom like a spoiled child while the rest of us have gotten over it all. Now if you please, I was beginning to have a civil conversation with another member. You know, sharing similarities and relating information?

This is, in no uncertain terms, an intentional flame.  

[PrometheanSet]

TeaDidikai

PrometheanSet

For someone on such a high pedestal, you have yet to show me any good reason why you're there.

This is pretty much a text book example of projection, just so you know.

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Oh, fine, don't share any info. Don't contribute anything. Don't bother to share anything at all about documentation, which you apparently don't need here.

I provided you with an explanation. Do you really want me to go back and cite a lineaged member of the Wica explaining the same thing in different words?

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The need for documentation arises from this pop-feux-Wicca that spreads outright falsehoods. There is no one more suited to clean up the mess they make than fellow pagans, you know.

I'm not pagan. I also don't really care about how people view Wica outside of specific situations.

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Go ahead and just sit there and spit venom like a spoiled child while the rest of us have gotten over it all. Now if you please, I was beginning to have a civil conversation with another member. You know, sharing similarities and relating information?

This is, in no uncertain terms, an intentional flame.

Similar to your intentional flames.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrometheanSet

Similar to your intentional flames.

Do you know what a flame is?  

[maenad nuri]

Neither one of you has supported anything beyond your own soundings, and an occasional authority appeal, so both of you should just cool your jets or cite your sources.

Or you can just leave this topic be.
/captain hat  

[TeaDidikai]

maenad nuri

Neither one of you has supported anything beyond your own soundings, and an occasional authority appeal, so both of you should just cool your jets or cite your sources.

Or you can just leave this topic be.
/captain hat

To be fair- it isn't an appeal to authority on my part if by virtue of initiation into a lineaged tradition the High Priestesses I am speaking of are indeed authorities. talk2hand  

[maenad nuri]

TeaDidikai

maenad nuri

Neither one of you has supported anything beyond your own soundings, and an occasional authority appeal, so both of you should just cool your jets or cite your sources.

Or you can just leave this topic be.
/captain hat

To be fair- it isn't an appeal to authority on my part if by virtue of initiation into a lineaged tradition the High Priestesses I am speaking of are indeed authorities. talk2hand

True, however, since you aren't naming the source, it can come off as "pulling it out of your a**".

Just saying is all.