Random thoughts - possibly discussion, maybe not, who knows?

[illyrianth]

Religious hatred. Woo-ee, a starter for ten and then some! Now, before anyone starts thinking that as I am a Pagan this is going to be an anti Christian rant, it isn't. I have met a number of people throughout my life who label themselves as Christian and many who choose the label Pagan. Unfortunately for me, I have run into a number of people who simply don't deserve the title they have given themselves. As a Pagan myself, I have had the dubious honour of encountering many who believe that I am something special, unusual or different, simply through the faith I follow. I'm not. Being a Pagan of any description is not big, it's not clever and it certainly isn't anything NEW. I cannot fly about on broomsticks, change my clothes with a wiggle of my nose or turn people into toads with a snap of my fingers. While it's true that there are times I have wished these things were possible (usually on my way to an interview when I am late and the dog has managed to get fur all over my suit, or some idiot has just cut me up on the motorway and scared the living daylights out of me), I am not about to go around suggesting that I myself hold any inner power. If a spell is performed, (which I admit, is rare for me - again, personal choice) I do not believe that it is MY power which does the work. I can only explain it as allowing the gods/goddesses (or however you wish to term it) to work THROUGH me. The only thing I see as special about myself in any way is the same "special" quality in all people and things around me.

I have also encountered a number of people who state proudly that they are Pagans and then go on to badmouth the Christian faith, citing the Burning Times as the reason for their hatred. To me, this is not acceptable. The Burning Times, although a terrible time for everyone concerned, was many years ago. Yes, as Pagans, we still face a number of preconceptions, but can we think back to when the Christians started out? The Romans slaughtered them in their hundreds...Genocide, comparable to Hitler's disgusting wholesale slaughter of the Jews - perpetrated by Pagans. Just as I was not one of those who carried out these acts, likewise the Christians of today are not Remy, Sprenger & Kramer, Matthew Hopkins and all those others responsible for the Burning Times.

And it's not just Pagans and Christians who have suffered and continue to suffer over the years. Every faith group at some time or another has met with suspicion, distrust and outright violent hatred. Could somebody please tell me what books those who perpetrate these acts have been reading? Simple truth is, I haven't found a faith path yet that actively promotes the slaughter of innocent people simply due to a difference of a opinion.

In all, religious hatred stems from the insecurity of both the higher echelons of that particular group and the personal insecurities of some of its members. I am secure enough in my own mind as to what I believe, hence I do not feel the need to denigrate others. The only way I can put it clearly in my head (and stick with me here, it could get bumpy) is that RELIGION causes wars but FAITH tries to love, regardless of the obstacles. On second thoughts, that may not make much sense to anyone else, but to my mind, I have to separate faith and religion as two distinct entities.

I have found that as humans, we all try to separate ourselves into groups. It's natural. However, I am at a loss as to why the competition between these groups which WE have constructed can so often boil over into hatred and violence.  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Religion doesn't cause wars at all. It isn't an entity. It's the people who misinterpret and mangle their religions who cause wars, in the same way that it's people who misinterpret and mangle science who state that the 'meaning of life', as stated by science (which it most certainly is not!), is to reproduce.

Religion is a set of ideas and value statements, basically. Most religions involve the concept of God or gods and some construct through by which you should live your life for any given reason. The reason might be reward and punishment or it might be as simple as trying to better yourself or the world around you. Persecution of people belonging to other religions tends to be a misinterpretion of those ideas or resentment for events long past.

I suppose those Pagans just don't realise that it wasn't the religion itself (not an entity!) that commited those acts against Pagans but Christians who are now dead and have no influence on Christianity. I think they're also overlooking the important fact that it wasn't Paganism (a religion, a non-entity) that was attacked, but the followers of it.

By the way, is Paganism strictly a religion? 'Pagan' (with a lowercase 'p') generally just refers to followers of religions other than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam; Buddhists are pagans. What I mean is, without being offensive, is there a religion by the name of Paganism or are you just using that as a catch-all term for yourself and members of similar faiths like Wicca?

And, just out of interest, what is your belief system?  

[illyrianth]

When I use the term Paganism, yes, I use a term which embraces a whole range of different faith paths. I am NOT and I must repeat this NOT a "Wiccan". My family have been hedgewitches (that is to say the wise women and cunning men, midwives and village "doctors") in my locale for several hundred years. We can trace them back to somewhere around 1250, always doing the same things. We tried going further back, but it just got too shaky as the evidence trail dried up.

I tend to keep Hinduism, Buddhism and Paganism separate in my mind for no other reason than Buddhists and Hindus are generally far more "acceptable" in the common mindset. Pagans (the druids, the hedgewitches and so on) are generally viewed with a little more in the way of distrust, but this is hardly surprising in a country where the power of Christianity has held sway for several hundred years.

In the teaching sphere, it is not considered acceptable to call a Buddhst or Hindu a pagan. In fact, it could be considered one of the more insulting terms to use. It is akin to claiming that the Torah is the Jewish Bible..doesn't go down at all well, unsurprisingly...~l~ Paganism, as far as I can explain is essentially nature based, polytheistic and has a live and let live philosophy. A lot of us let ourselves down when we allow ourselves to belittle those of other faiths, such as Christianity, as it is not how the gods would like us to behave...

As to what I practice...I don't know how I would explain it. I ask the Lord and Lady for help, I am comforted by them when I am sad and can share my joy with them when I am happy. When it comes to magic...well, magic is nothing more than directed prayer, so...As a hedgewitch, I work with herbs and other plants...let's face it, aspirin comes from willowbark and there are many properties in plants on which modern pharmaceuticals are based so...it's not really magic, but science. Depends how you would like to see things I suppose  

[Invictus_88]

illyrianth

Every faith group at some time or another has met with suspicion, distrust and outright violent hatred.

What have the Sikhs ever done wrong? Maybe I'm just considering them in too rosy a light though..  

[illyrianth]

Invictus_88

illyrianth

Every faith group at some time or another has met with suspicion, distrust and outright violent hatred.

What have the Sikhs ever done wrong? Maybe I'm just considering them in too rosy a light though..

They have "done" nothing at all. But they have been the focus of another group's violent tendencies in the past, all thanks to ignorance.  

[Gaulia]

Religion is a difficult subject, period. And it becomes a hundred times more difficult when people begin to compare and wonder.
But I'm pretty certain that it's not just a clash of opinions when it comes to religion which can cause wars. Alot of intolerance stems indirectly from fear - at which point it makes "sense" [Ok, it doesn't, but stick with me here] that if their religion didn't exist, or if there weren't so many followers of it that it could become such as a "lesser" religion. This means that people can be ignorant and choose to follow their own path or thought that the minority is wrong.
I'm not sure. Whether they're so subconsciously frightened that perhaps a religion which isn't their own might be "right", or whether they're blatantly intolerant, it seems pretty obvious that religious clashes aren't merely down the principalities.

Sorry, guys. I'm really tired, but I know what I mean.  

[illyrianth]

I THINK I follow...~nods~  

[Gaulia]

illyrianth

I THINK I follow...~nods~

It makes sense in my head. If you can understand that, congratulations. Reading back over it, I'm thinking about re-wording the whole thing. It's awfully written.  

[illyrianth]

Gaulia

illyrianth

I THINK I follow...~nods~

It makes sense in my head. If you can understand that, congratulations. Reading back over it, I'm thinking about re-wording the whole thing. It's awfully written.

I don't know, perhaps I am wrong, but I am getting a feeling of "if their religion turns out to be right, then I will look like an idiot and therefore, if I kill them all now, there can be no question of the validity of their religion" sort of thing....Am I wildly offtrack?

Also, humans fear what they do not understand and hate what they fear...It's a quote from a very old, very BAD movie.... wink  

[Gaulia]

illyrianth

Gaulia

illyrianth

I THINK I follow...~nods~

It makes sense in my head. If you can understand that, congratulations. Reading back over it, I'm thinking about re-wording the whole thing. It's awfully written.

I don't know, perhaps I am wrong, but I am getting a feeling of "if their religion turns out to be right, then I will look like an idiot and therefore, if I kill them all now, there can be no question of the validity of their religion" sort of thing....Am I wildly offtrack?

Also, humans fear what they do not understand and hate what they fear...It's a quote from a very old, very BAD movie.... wink

Yes, yes you're on track-ish.

ANd DAMN, I meant to put something in there about not understanding. ._.  

[MellowYetPsycho]

responding to the first post and original topic since i'm sleepy:

it's my personal belief based on experience and factual information that people, in general, aren't ready for religion. i also don't think people as a whole are ready to turn completely to science. the way our minds work, we need some sort of faith to keep us going, and it's a hell of alot easier to just read up on one that's already made instead of fully figuring out one's faith one's own. most people are given one at birth anyway.

to end war and violence that arises from religion and lack of, it's common sense that what we all need is some medium to bring us together. that'd never happen because we vary in so many different ways.

and even if we did find it. whatever it was. and we were all at peace. it'd be so damned boring.

so in short, violence, intolerance, and disrespect are all good things in their own little ways. i'd like to think of some branches of philosophy as the best religions. man thinking for himself for once. god forbid. (no pun intended.)  

[Foetus In Fetu]

Yeah.

I wouldn't like to see people turn to science to define their life for them, not least because it's amoral. Science is a tool; using the knowledge gained from science you have a better foundation upon which to build your beliefs but you cannot have your entire moral system ("The meaning of life is to reproduce!") derived from science; it's logically fallacious and it just doesn't work.

Science, by definition, cannot answer the big "Why", which is what a lot of people want to know. It cannot tell you whether there is a God. It cannot tell you whether or not your beliefs are valid. It is insufficient to answer many questions, and that's where philosophy steps in. Studying science can give you critical thinking tools but these critical thinking tools are not science and that, I think, is where confusion sets in.

MellowYetPsycho

to end war and violence that arises from religion and lack of, it's common sense that what we all need is some medium to bring us together. that'd never happen because we vary in so many different ways.

Religion is not the only thing that people differ on. The reason that wars are started because of religion is the same reason that a lot of disputes are caused: people are irrational and a great many people lack the ability to look at the world critically. I could write an essay on what I think about this, but I'm no qualified psychiatrist. It's hard for me, especially, to communicate what I mean here.  

[illyrianth]

Foetus In Fetu

Yeah.

I wouldn't like to see people turn to science to define their life for them, not least because it's amoral. Science is a tool; using the knowledge gained from science you have a better foundation upon which to build your beliefs but you cannot have your entire moral system ("The meaning of life is to reproduce!") derived from science; it's logically fallacious and it just doesn't work.

I love the way you have put this. I have looked for YEARS to try and put that in to words and drawn a blank.  

[Boolean Julian]

Yay! Time for me to pour out my opinions in a disorganised manner. Ahem.
I, myself, am an Athiest. I have good reasons for this, I have thought long and hard about it, and I see that the concept of deity is simply incoherent. I won't explain all my reasons now, if you really want to know, pm me.
I think religion is a very mixed blessing. The chief reason people turn to religion is, I think, because they are scared by the thought they are alone in the universe, scared by the thought that they and they alone are responisble for their actions, scared, above all, of the fact that humanity is unbeleiveably insignificant in the grand scheme of things. And so people like to believe that we are being watched over by a benevolent being (with varying degrees of involvement, depending on your faith), and that life is going somewhere, not simply an accident.

People also tend to talk about the "meaning of life". The fact is not only that life doesn't have a meaning, but the concept of meaning is not applicaple to the concept of life. It's like asking what gravity means - it's just there, it doesn't have to mean anything. The other question is "what is the purpose of life?". This makes a little more sense. But it's still ambiguous. "Life" can mean the life of an individual, or it can mean life as in all living things as a group. In the case of the first, it seems to be pretty obvious. It's to avoid pain, to maximise all types of pleasure, and above all, to survive. In the second case, life itself doesn't really have a purpose. Life exists (I believe) by accident, and it's not designed to acheive anything. Indeed, acheivement is only really applicable to life forms. Can there be any success in a universe of non-sentience? Can a planet be said to fail?

Anyway, about religious hatred. Finally.
As I was saying, people have faith because they need it. It makes them secure. I have no objection to that. I don't really mind what people believe, providing they don't let it hurt others. Which brings me on to my other point.
Religion can have very bad repercussions. People say "it's not religion that causes wars, it's human nature". It's both. It is true that no religions justify the killing of innocents, (apart from possibly Satansim, but I'm not sure if that counts) and it's true that wars happen because it's human nature that causes people to bend the words of a religion. And that's the crunch. Without religion, there would be nothing to bend. All through history, genocide has been commited because of religious differences. As I agreed before, no religion says this is OK. But everything is ambiguous. Example: The Old Testament does say "thou shalt not kill", but it also says "an eye for an eye". Which means that you can kill someone for doing anything at least as bad as murder. And the First Commandment says that there is only one God, making polythiesm a worse crime than murder. Besides, most of the Old Testament apppears to be about the Israelites invading Palestine. It all gets very tricky. The real problem is that it's a very taboo thing to criticise behaviour that is part of a religion. And so there is the flipside of religion. Of course, as I said before, religion has many very good sides. One is the security it gives people. Another is the moral code it enforces (most of the time). I probably have most of the same values as any religious person, just without the God. Also, many of the greatest wonders of architecture and literature in history stem entirely from religious beliefs.
My advice to anyone who believes in a god, or many gods, would be this.
"Continue to believe what you believe, whether or not it's true, only make sure it stays harmless."  

[Nebelstern]

Thought I'd dig this thread up for possible *coughs* sensible discussion.
Failing that a hi-jacking. Yes, I am an addict. *Points finger at Invictus, Arivel and various others...*
And since this thread has no real theme, I shall start by saying how much I appreciate this little guild. Perhaps no so little. However, after a hard day of scholaring, it brightens my life a pleasing amount.
Just a random thought... sweatdrop