Aformentioned someone should make an economic thread...

[KraylorDePanthro]

Aformentioned someone should make an economic thread...

Here we are:
So, what way shall the economy be fixed?  

[Matt Pniewski]

"All believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions were his own, but they shared everything they had."-Acts 4:32-35

Just to keep this discussion on a religious ground instead of a political one. Right now, we are facing a tough decision: Stimulate the economy by spending money we don't have, or hoping the problem goes away. Let's forget Tax Cuts to stimulate the economy, that only works when you end up investing in new jobs, and we know pretty darn well that that the middle class American job market is a thing of the past.


Right now, what should we do? Just spend. That's the only way to make money flow is to spend, spend, spend! Who cares if the money doesn't exist? But the key is, what do we do to make sure this doesn't happen again?


I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?  

[Ixor Firebadger]

Very much agreed with that scripture.

Not so much for spending money you don't have. You really can't. Banks don't really go in for that sorta thing. I think companies need to keep people working. So many places are on a hiring freeze and laying people off. How is it going to do anythign for the economy when people don't have money to spend. It's just gonna make things worse.

Maybe the CEOs of some of these huge corporations could sell their multi-million dollar houses and private jets and yachts and put the money into keeping or creating jobs. stare  

[Priestley]

Well, what gets me is that people naturally tighten their belts whenever they hear the words 'recession' and 'depression'. This has serious consequences for everything. All companies try to stay afloat by calling debts and cutting costs, especially banks who provide credit for other companies. It is difficult to keep an economy running when access to credit ceases, because the machine of borrowing money and repaying it after making a profit from it can't work. Somewhere, someone in the cycle must have money to spend and be willing to invest it without the assurance that they will get it back for things to get moving again.

Do you have a model for an economy that works without lending/credit?  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

Well, what gets me is that people naturally tighten their belts whenever they hear the words 'recession' and 'depression'. This has serious consequences for everything. All companies try to stay afloat by calling debts and cutting costs, especially banks who provide credit for other companies. It is difficult to keep an economy running when access to credit ceases, because the machine of borrowing money and repaying it after making a profit from it can't work. Somewhere, someone in the cycle must have money to spend and be willing to invest it without the assurance that they will get it back for things to get moving again.

The thing that amuses me in a dark humor sort of way, is that people do not even understand economic crises. This latest "recession" came about without any actual explanation, and people panicked because they were told to. Economic models of recessions have a difficult time dealing with psychological impacts because of stuff like this. If I had been a policy maker, my first reaction to this "crisis" would have been to understand what the problem was.

It would be nice if policy makers would actually explain what the problem was, then explain how their "solution" would actually solve the problem.  

[Matt Pniewski]

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?

We've seen capitalism in it's purest form fall apart. Time and again. And we've also seen all our regulations go down the crapper.... And every new regulation is met with such hostility that some never really pass.


Capitalism has failed. It's over. Done with.

Quote:

Not so much for spending money you don't have. You really can't. Banks don't really go in for that sorta thing. I think companies need to keep people working. So many places are on a hiring freeze and laying people off. How is it going to do anythign for the economy when people don't have money to spend. It's just gonna make things worse.

That was a comment about economic stimulus, not about actually spending money we don't have. The Government uses money we don't have.

Quote:

The thing that amuses me in a dark humor sort of way, is that people do not even understand economic crises. This latest "recession" came about without any actual explanation, and people panicked because they were told to. Economic models of recessions have a difficult time dealing with psychological impacts because of stuff like this. If I had been a policy maker, my first reaction to this "crisis" would have been to understand what the problem was.

Actually, it came about because people were being sold bad loans... misled into buying loans they could not afford.... The lenders decided this would keep them forever in debt, and give them a steady cash flow.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. They couldn't even keep themselves afloat.


Our banks went under. It is very clear where all this came from. People panicked? Hon, people lost their jobs. Friends have lost homes. They did not panic, they went to work and found out they had no work to go to.

The crisis is so bad they even unemployment pay is short, and our jobs are even scarcer, so they risk losing everything at this point.

Right now, we need to stimulate the economy, and create jobs. Spend money to get the cash flowing so that people can actually employ others.

Also, let's close our sweatshops overseas and make laws to keep American companies HERE. IN AMERICA. Free Trade Agreements need to be unmade, abolished, lit on fire, buried into hell, and then dug up just so they can be eaten by a walrus. No more shipping out our jobs. At least that way, when people lose their jobs, lose their unemployment, they can perhaps find another one.

Until then, middle class jobs will continue to not exist.  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?

We've seen capitalism in it's purest form fall apart. Time and again. And we've also seen all our regulations go down the crapper.... And every new regulation is met with such hostility that some never really pass.


Capitalism has failed. It's over. Done with.

When was this?

Matt Pnieswki

Quote:

The thing that amuses me in a dark humor sort of way, is that people do not even understand economic crises. This latest "recession" came about without any actual explanation, and people panicked because they were told to. Economic models of recessions have a difficult time dealing with psychological impacts because of stuff like this. If I had been a policy maker, my first reaction to this "crisis" would have been to understand what the problem was.

Actually, it came about because people were being sold bad loans... misled into buying loans they could not afford.... The lenders decided this would keep them forever in debt, and give them a steady cash flow.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. They couldn't even keep themselves afloat.

This is close enough to the truth for purposes of this topic.

Matt Pneiwski

Our banks went under. It is very clear where all this came from. People panicked? Hon, people lost their jobs. Friends have lost homes. They did not panic, they went to work and found out they had no work to go to.

The "recession" came suddenly, almost overnight. The problem came over years and years. Panic.

Matt Pneiwski

Also, let's close our sweatshops overseas and make laws to keep American companies HERE. IN AMERICA. Free Trade Agreements need to be unmade, abolished, lit on fire, buried into hell, and then dug up just so they can be eaten by a walrus. No more shipping out our jobs. At least that way, when people lose their jobs, lose their unemployment, they can perhaps find another one.

How do you propose we handle the foreign relations aspect of this?  

[Matt Pniewski]

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?

We've seen capitalism in it's purest form fall apart. Time and again. And we've also seen all our regulations go down the crapper.... And every new regulation is met with such hostility that some never really pass.


Capitalism has failed. It's over. Done with.

When was this?

Well, considering that a few people caused the entire global economy to go into complete meltdown, I'd say this past summer. Then, of course, we've seen the cycle of boom and bust end this way before... Time and again.

Did you read my essay on how the economy doesn't work? I got CPUSA reading that stuff....

Quote:

Matt Pneiwski

Our banks went under. It is very clear where all this came from. People panicked? Hon, people lost their jobs. Friends have lost homes. They did not panic, they went to work and found out they had no work to go to.

The "recession" came suddenly, almost overnight. The problem came over years and years. Panic.

Years and years in the making. This was a problem that should have been foreseen, but wasn't. People started losing homes, jobs, banks went other. Think of it like a pot of boiling water.

Quote:

Matt Pneiwski

Also, let's close our sweatshops overseas and make laws to keep American companies HERE. IN AMERICA. Free Trade Agreements need to be unmade, abolished, lit on fire, buried into hell, and then dug up just so they can be eaten by a walrus. No more shipping out our jobs. At least that way, when people lose their jobs, lose their unemployment, they can perhaps find another one.

How do you propose we handle the foreign relations aspect of this?

Figure the people will be happy to NOT be working for a dollar a day in inhospitable, inhumane conditions.... Perhaps we can create stimulus packages as an exchange?

Fact is, there is no way to fix this without causing major damage. But it's something that is going to have to be done. It's something that shouldn't have been done. That was Reagon's blunder.  

[Priestley]

Sometimes I think I'm the only one in the country remaining optimistic about the current situation and see it as an opportunity for small enterprise to flourish -- a sort of 'scorched earth' scenario, you know, like how you see fresh sprouts showing through after forest fires. If I had the skills, knowledge and capital (the very lifeblood of capitalism) to start and run a business, this environment would be a perfect opportunity to create a tiny number of jobs for people and turn morale around for them.

I think it's not so much the money and debt people are worried about but the fact that they are helpless to pay it back while they are unemployed and not being productive or of much use really lowers self-esteem. Being alive and well is not much consolation.  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?

We've seen capitalism in it's purest form fall apart. Time and again. And we've also seen all our regulations go down the crapper.... And every new regulation is met with such hostility that some never really pass.


Capitalism has failed. It's over. Done with.

When was this?

Well, considering that a few people caused the entire global economy to go into complete meltdown, I'd say this past summer. Then, of course, we've seen the cycle of boom and bust end this way before... Time and again.

First, in regards to the United State's economy, it was not a few people who caused it. It was the combined action and inaction of thousands of people, as well as a number of regulatory bodies.

Second, do you really intend to claim the United States is a capitalistic country?

Matt Pneiwski

Quote:

Matt Pneiwski

Our banks went under. It is very clear where all this came from. People panicked? Hon, people lost their jobs. Friends have lost homes. They did not panic, they went to work and found out they had no work to go to.

The "recession" came suddenly, almost overnight. The problem came over years and years. Panic.

Years and years in the making. This was a problem that should have been foreseen, but wasn't. People started losing homes, jobs, banks went other. Think of it like a pot of boiling water.

Is this a tacit agreement that people panicked, or are you disagreeing by not disagreeing?

Matt Pniewski

Quote:

Matt Pniewski

Also, let's close our sweatshops overseas and make laws to keep American companies HERE. IN AMERICA. Free Trade Agreements need to be unmade, abolished, lit on fire, buried into hell, and then dug up just so they can be eaten by a walrus. No more shipping out our jobs. At least that way, when people lose their jobs, lose their unemployment, they can perhaps find another one.

How do you propose we handle the foreign relations aspect of this?

Figure the people will be happy to NOT be working for a dollar a day in inhospitable, inhumane conditions.... Perhaps we can create stimulus packages as an exchange?

Foreign relations involve dealing with the country leaders, not people of the country. Your answer here does not begin to address the myriad of issues your proposal creates.

Matt Pniewski

Fact is, there is no way to fix this without causing major damage. But it's something that is going to have to be done. It's something that shouldn't have been done. That was Reagon's blunder.

It is going to take a lot of explaining to justify that one.

Edit: That should probably be, "tens of thousands" rather than "thousands."  

[Ixor Firebadger]

Priestley

I think it's not so much the money and debt people are worried about but the fact that they are helpless to pay it back while they are unemployed and not being productive or of much use really lowers self-esteem. Being alive and well is not much consolation.

So true gonk

This is the the exact situation I'm in right now.  

[Matt Pniewski]

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

zz1000zz

Matt Pniewski

I say we accept the fact that this capitalism bird just won't fly....

How could that possibly be a fact?

We've seen capitalism in it's purest form fall apart. Time and again. And we've also seen all our regulations go down the crapper.... And every new regulation is met with such hostility that some never really pass.


Capitalism has failed. It's over. Done with.

When was this?

Well, considering that a few people caused the entire global economy to go into complete meltdown, I'd say this past summer. Then, of course, we've seen the cycle of boom and bust end this way before... Time and again.

First, in regards to the United State's economy, it was not a few people who caused it. It was the combined action and inaction of thousands of people, as well as a number of regulatory bodies.

Second, do you really intend to claim the United States is a capitalistic country?

We've had the closest to a pure capitalist economy you can get. Then we realized "We need regulation." That was over 100 years ago.

The primary cause was the bad loans. The secondary cause was the lack of regulation.

Matt Pneiwski

Quote:

Matt Pneiwski

Our banks went under. It is very clear where all this came from. People panicked? Hon, people lost their jobs. Friends have lost homes. They did not panic, they went to work and found out they had no work to go to.

The "recession" came suddenly, almost overnight. The problem came over years and years. Panic.

Years and years in the making. This was a problem that should have been foreseen, but wasn't. People started losing homes, jobs, banks went other. Think of it like a pot of boiling water.

Is this a tacit agreement that people panicked, or are you disagreeing by not disagreeing?

I'm just claiming people did not panic without warning, and people have every right to be terrified.

Quote:

Matt Pniewski

Quote:

Matt Pniewski

Also, let's close our sweatshops overseas and make laws to keep American companies HERE. IN AMERICA. Free Trade Agreements need to be unmade, abolished, lit on fire, buried into hell, and then dug up just so they can be eaten by a walrus. No more shipping out our jobs. At least that way, when people lose their jobs, lose their unemployment, they can perhaps find another one.

How do you propose we handle the foreign relations aspect of this?

Figure the people will be happy to NOT be working for a dollar a day in inhospitable, inhumane conditions.... Perhaps we can create stimulus packages as an exchange?

Foreign relations involve dealing with the country leaders, not people of the country. Your answer here does not begin to address the myriad of issues your proposal creates.

I never claimed it does. I'm just claiming that is has to be done. Face it.... We need to fix our middle class job market, because it's been sold to foreign labor.

And the first statement was in regards to the fact that, well, I really don't think they are doing much good over there.... Not that the other nations will like it.

Quote:

Matt Pniewski

Fact is, there is no way to fix this without causing major damage. But it's something that is going to have to be done. It's something that shouldn't have been done. That was Reagon's blunder.

It is going to take a lot of explaining to justify that one.

Edit: That should probably be, "tens of thousands" rather than "thousands."

How Ronald Reagon caused this? Well, I'd put some of the blame on others. But pretty much creating an economy where we could ship jobs overseas in such a manner.

Look up "Ronald Reagon" and free trade.  

[zz1000zz]

Matt Pniewski

We've had the closest to a pure capitalist economy you can get. Then we realized "We need regulation." That was over 100 years ago.

Your demonstration of capitalism failing is a country's economic crisis over a hundred years since it was capitalistic. How does that make any sense?

Matt Pniewski

I'm just claiming people did not panic without warning, and people have every right to be terrified.

So you are disagreeing by not disagreeing.

Matt Pniewski

I never claimed it does. I'm just claiming that is has to be done. Face it.... We need to fix our middle class job market, because it's been sold to foreign labor.

And the first statement was in regards to the fact that, well, I really don't think they are doing much good over there.... Not that the other nations will like it.

So you are saying it needs to be done, but you refuse to offer any solution to the problems it will cause. Why would anyone listen to what you say?

Matt Pniewski

How Ronald Reagon caused this? Well, I'd put some of the blame on others. But pretty much creating an economy where we could ship jobs overseas in such a manner.

Look up "Ronald Reagon" and free trade.

The "look it up" argument does not qualify as an explanation  

[KraylorDePanthro]

I had an idea, I've been told it is similiar to Communism, but anyway...

Given that:
A. Money is a social construct, it is metal and paper that have been assigned value, and have been supported as such by consensus of society.
B. It has been said that Time is money.

I read somewhere that we used to have the gold standard, but switched from money to currency, and that must be in constant flow or it would go down in value.


I propose that we discontinue the use of currency or money as it is now understood and skip the middle man so to speak, and have time truly equal money.

We make this a global effort, wherein, if a person contributes 6 hrs=1/4 of their day, providing a service or making a product, the 6 hrs could be divided up into smaller segments, as to when they felt productive as an indivdual, and actually worked during the time they are working, then if given that they filled their time quota the day before, then that day following the work, they be given an all access pass for that day, also, make it so people can work where they would like to, given that they have skills and such able to do such.

An idea.