Saturday vs. Sunday!

[SavageDamsal]

Disclaimer: I am not intending on condemning people who think differently than I do, I simply want to understand their reasoning behind it.

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist. We go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday because we believe that in the 10 commandments when it says, ""Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God." (Exodus 20:8-10a) that means Saturday, the 7th day in our work week. I've heard all kinds of explanations for why different denominations choose to worship on Sunday but none of them are based on the Bible. Example - It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that we should change the day of worship to Sunday because that is the day that Jesus rose from the dead. Also, the jews worshiped on Saturday and they were the original followers of God so why should we change that?

Also, many people go to church and then afterwards just go about their day as usual. They go to work later in the afternoon, go to the movies, go to the mall, etc. Again, the Bible says, "On [the Sabbath] you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates." (Exodus 20:10b) Why is it that people will follow all the other commandments but so often simply ignore the 4th one?

Reminder: I am not trying to attack Sunday worshipers. I'm simply providing you my reasons for Saturday worship and asking you for yours. Please be kind!  

[Priestley]

I find this debate quite interesting.

The commandment is as you say. Following the creation story that there was darkness before light every day of creation, practising Jews consider a day to start at the previous day's sundown. Tradition (that is to say Jewish tradition) holds that Shabbat (Sabbath) starts from Friday sundown through to Saturday sundown because the first day of the Jewish week starts from Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. This is contrary to the popular idea that a day starts at sunrise or at midnight on a clock, or that the week starts on a Monday.

Personally, I consider a lot of Jesus' teachings on the matter. One sticks in my mind:

Jesus in Mark 2:27 (NIV)

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

Some of Mark 2-3 runs parallel to Matthew 12 and Luke 6. John 5, 7 and 9 makes mention of other relevant accounts relating to the Sabbath. Basically, you can search on BibleGateway.com for passages relating to Sabbath.

I believe Jesus meant that the Sabbath was given as an opportunity for man to rest from his labours and be unconcerned with looking out for himself and others, to take time out to contemplate and find peace in God; not that man should be prevented from or forced to obey it by doing nothing at all. Jesus frequently healed on the Sabbath and it wasn't unknown for priests to circumsize children on the Sabbath, as Jesus says in John 7:23. He reasons that, if priests can do their work on the Sabbath, then he also should be allowed to do his works.

I think that God cares for man's need for rest so much that it was made one of the most important commandments. It was made out of God's love for man, not so that man may love God for one day a week.  

[SavageDamsal]

Priestley

I find this debate quite interesting.

The commandment is as you say. Following the creation story that there was darkness before light every day of creation, practising Jews consider a day to start at the previous day's sundown. Tradition (that is to say Jewish tradition) holds that Shabbat (Sabbath) starts from Friday sundown through to Saturday sundown because the first day of the Jewish week starts from Saturday sundown to Sunday sundown. This is contrary to the popular idea that a day starts at sunrise or at midnight on a clock, or that the week starts on a Monday.

Personally, I consider a lot of Jesus' teachings on the matter. One sticks in my mind:

Jesus in Mark 2:27 (NIV)

"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

Some of Mark 2-3 runs parallel to Matthew 12 and Luke 6. John 5, 7 and 9 makes mention of other relevant accounts relating to the Sabbath. Basically, you can search on BibleGateway.com for passages relating to Sabbath.

I believe Jesus meant that the Sabbath was given as an opportunity for man to rest from his labours and be unconcerned with looking out for himself and others, to take time out to contemplate and find peace in God; not that man should be prevented from or forced to obey it by doing nothing at all. Jesus frequently healed on the Sabbath and it wasn't unknown for priests to circumsize children on the Sabbath, as Jesus says in John 7:23. He reasons that, if priests can do their work on the Sabbath, then he also should be allowed to do his works.

I think that God cares for man's need for rest so much that it was made one of the most important commandments. It was made out of God's love for man, not so that man may love God for one day a week.

You make some interesting points though do a good job of dodging the main point. And yes, I do celebrate the Sabbath from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. The Sabbath was made for man so that he could find relaxation and peace in God, a time off so to speak. That doesn't mean, though, that the Sabbath is the day that we just laze around and do whatever we feel like. It is supposed to be a time of communion with God, not necessarily watching the newest Adam Sandler movie or buying some cute toe nail polish.

You say Jesus healed on the Sabbath and that priests preach on the Sabbath. This is true but the work they are doing is not to benefit themselves, it is to serve others. Jesus healed and priests led other followers. I believe that those kinds of work are acceptable on the Sabbath. I have several friends who are doctors or nurses that work on Sabbaths though often they donate the money they make to the church and its works.

I do agree with you, the Sabbath is supposed to be a gift to us from God. It is a time to remember the good things he has done for us and to establish a bond with him that will continue throughout the week. It shouldn't be made simply a day of things you "can" and "cannot" do and that is not what I'm proposing. I find that Saturday is my favorite day of the week because I can truely relax. I spend some time with God and I don't have to worry about little things that sometimes we don't even realize we worry about!  

[Priestley]

I wasn't dodging it. I provided a background about Shabbat in Jewish tradition for those who are unclear as to what it means in its original context and why it is the way it is. I then pointed to what Jesus thought of Shabbat and how it differed from Jewish tradition of the time. We should hold that Jesus taught according to the Law and that his word is trustworthy, so whatever Jesus has to say about the Sabbath must be in line with what God has said about the Sabbath.

Incidentally, there is no reference (other than Jewish tradition) to when it is that the seven-day cycle begins and ends. As Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". In other words, the Sabbath was made for man's sake, for the good of man. Man wasn't made to follow the Sabbath or to be burdened by it, which would make man worse off. For this reason, I believe the Sabbath is flexible to a person's working week and that it is his or her personal decision when that seventh Sabbath day falls, and also whether or not to take advantage of it. Essentially, it's one day off from working six days in a row, just as God did.

Also, Jesus didn't only do good works on the Sabbath but he also picked food from the fields with his disciples on the Sabbath (see the passages I mentioned in my previous post). It also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the Son of Man so therefore he is the Lord of the Sabbath, and he did things like that. If it's okay for Jesus to do it, it's okay for us to do it.  

[freelance lover]

We had a discussion about keeping the Sabbath in my Bible study once when I was back in high school. We eventually came to the idea that God just wants at least a seventh of our time. In today's world, its hard to spend en entire day doing nothing- and honestly that would make me crazy!

That being said, I'm of the opinion as long as your devout a seventh of your time to God, you're keeping the Sabbath. I feel like God doesn't really care when you do it, so long as you do it.

Of course, I've been absolutely terrible about that this semester. sweatdrop New Years Resolution I suppose.  

[SavageDamsal]

I will agree with you that Saturday isn't necessarily always the "7th day" and I am ok with people worshiping on Sunday as long as they have good reasons for it. I think, though, that if we are going to follow the Bible directly then the 7th day (according to the calendar) is Saturday so that is when I worship. What I'm mainly concerned about is people not giving that time to God. People follow other commandments like not to murder, not to steal, etc but it irks me that they ignore the 4th commandment and use it only as it conveniences them. True, Jesus picked wheat on the Sabbath but that going directly against the pharasees rules for the Sabbath. They said you could only walk so far and do so much on that day. Picking some food to eat isn't work. That was Jesus say that the Sabbath isn't something we should get legalistic about. It is a day for man to relax and spend some time with God. He wasn't saying, "Hey, Sabbath is just a day to relax and do anything you want because God said it's ok." People were getting stressed out with all these rules they had to follow and He was trying to tell them it's not that hard.

About freelance lover's comment, I don't just sit around and do nothing on Sabbath, that would drive me crazy too! I've gone to do some community service with my church, gone carolling, had Bible studies with my friends, watched Veggie Tales, visited shut ins, go on hikes, etc. There are many ways to serve God and have communion with him. Not all of them involve shutting yourself in your house and reading your Bible all day! I have more fun celebrating the Sabbath than I would playing video games all day long or watching movies or whatever.

Priestley

I wasn't dodging it. I provided a background about Shabbat in Jewish tradition for those who are unclear as to what it means in its original context and why it is the way it is. I then pointed to what Jesus thought of Shabbat and how it differed from Jewish tradition of the time. We should hold that Jesus taught according to the Law and that his word is trustworthy, so whatever Jesus has to say about the Sabbath must be in line with what God has said about the Sabbath.

Incidentally, there is no reference (other than Jewish tradition) to when it is that the seven-day cycle begins and ends. As Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". In other words, the Sabbath was made for man's sake, for the good of man. Man wasn't made to follow the Sabbath or to be burdened by it, which would make man worse off. For this reason, I believe the Sabbath is flexible to a person's working week and that it is his or her personal decision when that seventh Sabbath day falls, and also whether or not to take advantage of it. Essentially, it's one day off from working six days in a row, just as God did.

Also, Jesus didn't only do good works on the Sabbath but he also picked food from the fields with his disciples on the Sabbath (see the passages I mentioned in my previous post). It also says that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the Son of Man so therefore he is the Lord of the Sabbath, and he did things like that. If it's okay for Jesus to do it, it's okay for us to do it.

 

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

As has already been said, I don't think it matters which day of the week you choose to be your Sabbath. Some people even go to church on Wednesday.

What I don't understand though is this concept that human beings are supposed to rest on the Sabbath. All the Commandment says is to "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." Isn't it enough to go to church and get some worship in? I mean, obviously, that's the bare minimum, and we shouldn't just settle for that, but the Bible never explicitly explains what "keeping the Sabbath day holy" means. Sure, we can go from what the Jews of the NT did, and relax and spend the entire day in fellowship with God. I guess that's one interpretation. I just don't know where this idea of rest came from. God rested, but the Bible never explicitly says that we're supposed to do the same.

And yes, I am playing Devil's advocate right now. >3  

[SavageDamsal]

Fushigi na Butterfly

As has already been said, I don't think it matters which day of the week you choose to be your Sabbath. Some people even go to church on Wednesday.

What I don't understand though is this concept that human beings are supposed to rest on the Sabbath. All the Commandment says is to "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." Isn't it enough to go to church and get some worship in? I mean, obviously, that's the bare minimum, and we shouldn't just settle for that, but the Bible never explicitly explains what "keeping the Sabbath day holy" means. Sure, we can go from what the Jews of the NT did, and relax and spend the entire day in fellowship with God. I guess that's one interpretation. I just don't know where this idea of rest came from. God rested, but the Bible never explicitly says that we're supposed to do the same.

And yes, I am playing Devil's advocate right now. >3

Tee hee! This is why!

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20 8-11)  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Okay, well, what's work? What's resting? Working in the name of the Lord is okay, but resting by going out to a movie is not?  

[Priestley]

SavageDamsal

Fushigi na Butterfly

As has already been said, I don't think it matters which day of the week you choose to be your Sabbath. Some people even go to church on Wednesday.

What I don't understand though is this concept that human beings are supposed to rest on the Sabbath. All the Commandment says is to "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy." Isn't it enough to go to church and get some worship in? I mean, obviously, that's the bare minimum, and we shouldn't just settle for that, but the Bible never explicitly explains what "keeping the Sabbath day holy" means. Sure, we can go from what the Jews of the NT did, and relax and spend the entire day in fellowship with God. I guess that's one interpretation. I just don't know where this idea of rest came from. God rested, but the Bible never explicitly says that we're supposed to do the same.

And yes, I am playing Devil's advocate right now. >3

Tee hee! This is why!

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." (Exodus 20 8-11)

The important thing to do in this case is to consider what it means to make something "holy". Oftentimes, things that are holy in the Bible are set apart. That is, they are divided or seperated or taken out from a group of things for a special purpose. In this sense, the seventh day is different from the other six because it is a day when God himself didn't work. Something being holy does not necessarily mean it should be raised up to extreme importance and significance and enforced with all strictness.

The blessing of which God speaks is literally the resting from labour (as given in the reasoning for the fourth commandment in the very same passage) and is granted precisely because God rested on the seventh day. It is a "here, have this day so you can rest from all your hard work" thing. It is a "it's not good for your health to work all the time" thing. After all, this is the same God who pushed Adam and Eve out of Eden and said to Adam that he would eat by the sweat of his brow.

It's a merciful commandment, not a vengeful one. This is the message Jesus was putting across.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

I was always taught that Christians worshiped on a Sunday because that's the day that Christ rose from the grave. I think that tradition holds it's also the day he ascended into heaven. So we decided to turn those holy days into a week-to-week holy day, and it gave us one more distinct difference from the Jewish religion, since the church was originally just recognized as some weird Jewish sect.

But... we NEED the rest. Has anyone ever worked for ten days straight? You get two days off the beginning of one week and two off at the tail end of the next? You're stressed, tired and overworked and look forward to doing NOTHING on that eleventh day. We can only take so much. Our holy day and our rest day don't have to be the same. Go to church on Sunday morning and work in the afternoon... but take Wednesday as a day for yourself. Keep it all in balance.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

I think the general message of what God is trying to say goes along with that, ryuu. Work, because you have to, but don't forget to take some time to devote to just you and God, and also some just to devote to just you.  

[SavageDamsal]

Wow! I don't mean to sound condemning or anything but really everyone is just twisting this commandment to however it suits them best. Does no one think that God really knew what he was talking about when he made that commandment? Everyones like, "well, he said this but I want to do this so..." I mean, I get the whole worshiping on Sunday thing even though its true roots are different from what people say now, but the total disregard for the Sabbath really gets me. I don't understand it.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Of course God knows what He's talking about. There's no argument there. But it's the interpretation of not doing any work and keeping the day holy that trips people up. If I'm an equine hobbyist and my way of resting is to go out and spend time with the horses, does it go without saying that I'm breaking the fourth Commandment by going out and mucking out the stalls and exercising the animals? It's "work" but it's also a very restful activity. Your interpretation sounds more like "one day a week should be spent doing only God things nothing else can cross your mind ever." It's not a total disregard of the Sabbath. If I find sitting in front of the TV restful, that's what I'm gonna do.

Church is even optional, though definitely beneficial. We're called to have fellowship, but the Bible never specifies how we're to fellowship. The Bible has a verse about where two or three are gathered in Jesus' name, but the gathering doesn't have to be physical. I get more spiritual growth from this guild than any church I've been to in the past three years.  

[SavageDamsal]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Of course God knows what He's talking about. There's no argument there. But it's the interpretation of not doing any work and keeping the day holy that trips people up. If I'm an equine hobbyist and my way of resting is to go out and spend time with the horses, does it go without saying that I'm breaking the fourth Commandment by going out and mucking out the stalls and exercising the animals? It's "work" but it's also a very restful activity. Your interpretation sounds more like "one day a week should be spent doing only God things nothing else can cross your mind ever." It's not a total disregard of the Sabbath. If I find sitting in front of the TV restful, that's what I'm gonna do.

Church is even optional, though definitely beneficial. We're called to have fellowship, but the Bible never specifies how we're to fellowship. The Bible has a verse about where two or three are gathered in Jesus' name, but the gathering doesn't have to be physical. I get more spiritual growth from this guild than any church I've been to in the past three years.

Actually, I completely agree with you in this statement though I'm slightly unhappy about how you think I spend my Sabbaths. I agree that the idea of rest changes between people but that's not what I'm talking about. People in here keep talking about how they think that doing anything that isn't work is rest and rest is all that the Sabbath calls for. Personally I find walking very relaxing and I go on 4-5 mile hikes on Sabbath. All I'm saying is that the focus of this day needs to be on God and thanking him for what he's done for us durring the week. It's not simply a day to do whatever it is you feel like.

I also agree with you about Church. I travel a lot so I don't always get to go to a church or go to a church that I like. Church is a tool to help us grow in our relationships with God by fellowshipping with other people but that is by no means the only way we can recieve his message.