Labels and Conformity/Non Confomity

[lurichan]

This is a discussion thread, which means I'm going to lay out a few ground rules/remind people of some of the guild rules before I start.

exclaim NO FLAMING. Yes, I expect people to have differences of opinions and to discuss that, but responses must be done intelligently without attacking the other person.
exclaim BE LITERATE. This is a discussion thread, so one word and one line responses are going to be asked to be elaborated upon. Please feel free to use the English language to it's fullest extend in replying to posts that have been made, and add your own opinions, thoughts and feelings.
exclaim AGREE TO DISAGREE. This might sound a little strange at first, but not everyone is going to have the same opinions, so even if you feel you are right, don't try to make other people think the exact same way as you.

That being said.... I'm going to kick this topic off with a paraphrasing.
"I'm so non-conformist I'm not going to conform to the rest of you" ~ Goth Kid in South Park from the You Got Served Episode.

A lot of people feel that being goth is all about throwing off the labels that society imposses upon people and breaking free from the stereotypes. To be a free thinker and to look at the world differently. Perhaps this is a bit of an idealistic viewpoint.
In some ways defining oneself as goth is in it's own right a way of seeking out a label, a group to fit in with, and people who crave to have a place to fit in, to feel a part of a group will sometimes still conform to the norms of that group in order to feel like they are a part of it.

That is where the label posser seems to come into play. Somewhere along the way people got the notion in their head that anyone who wanted to belong so badly as to radically alter their entire lifestyle to just feel acceptance in one group still didn't belong in that group, and decided to deem them an outcast within a group of outcasts for trying too hard. Perhaps the term fledgling would be more appropriate, or at least less flippant and degrading, but why do people resort to labeling one another in the first place?

A lot of that might stem from the fact that people like to feel like they can identify with one another. In the more mainstream society you can see this need for identifying with one another in such activities as bonding over a favorite sports team, pregnant women who congregate together to talk about their similar experiences, or school kids who like the same movies or music. People like to feel they have a common interest with someone else, and it makes them feel less alienated and isolated to have other people with similar interests to speak with. To more easily identify who has similar interests, labels are often times applied of ease of identification of who might make a good friend, and who might have opposing view points.

In all honestly, even when people try not to use labels, they still will inevitably resort to them in certain circumstances. Describing someone as a jerk will immediately invoke the imagery of someone who is rude or vulgar and generally distasteful to your audience. Saying someone was the sweetest angel tells your audience that there was a certain soft and gentle quality about someone that made you feel warm and special. So in all honestly the use of labels does seem a bit inevitable since most adjectives do become labels after a certain point in time. After all, if you are here you most likely feel you belong under the general label of goth.

So then why do people start to subdivide the labels? Why are some people still singled out and told that they aren't "Goth enough"? Who sets the standards that everyone else is expected to conform to really? When does a band go from being an obscure favorite to many to becoming mainstream and no longer acceptable? And why should we begrudge a band for finding fame and success to begin with? Is there something inherently wrong with a band being popular with the masses? I don't think it's fair to turn your back on a band just because they have a larger fan base than it did before.

For a group that prides itself on setting itself aside from the rest of the mainstream of society, why then do many still feel the need to dress all in black all the time? If it's just for the sole purpose of being different, then how long until we are like a shirt I saw at work? "You are an individual, just like everyone else" To what degree does non conformity to society in general just become conformity to the counterculture of goth?  

[Yamir N. Mordecai]

I believe you stole our word luri.  

[lurichan]

Deskflipper

I believe you stole our word luri.

How do you feel I stole it?  

[Darth_Gently]

I don't have time to read the whole bloody thing at the moment, because I have to do work, but I'll put some input in when I have time.  

[eereesa]

You are very right, lurichan. I constantly go on DeviantART (no account there) and I checked out someone's gallery the other day. Very wise message. It said "I am what I want to be and that's what true individuality is." Or something along those lines. I can give you the actual words once I can get the picture...
Anyway, as long as you do what fits you, dress as you like, and listen to music that appeals to your taste (which can be Britney Spears), you are an individual, even if you look like a clone, because it's your style, and you're not copying anyone.  

[ceilisidhe]

Darth_Gently

I don't have time to read the whole bloody thing at the moment, because I have to do work, but I'll put some input in when I have time.

You've been online for.....4 hours or so now.....doing some research beforehand?  

[Spionum]

well, see, the difficult thing is that there are three types of people. The first type, the way I see it, are the ones who go school shopping and see a pair of jeans and think "I saw those in teen people! I have to get them! They're so cute!" then there are the girls who go, see a pair of jeans, and think "Eeew. those were inTeen People! Better stay away from that brand from now on." Then there are the ones who are in my opinion the most honest with themselves (the non-poser, if you must) who think "Hey, didn't I see those in Teen People? They might just fit. I think I'll try them on."

So the first type are trend-followers, the second are so anti-trend that it's just silly, and the third don't really care and are comfortable with whatever they like or wear whether it's in or out. When these types of people come together, labels are formed out of discomfort around one another and possibly jealousy? This is what I've always thought, anyways.  

[lurichan]

sp1ffy

well, see, the difficult thing is that there are three types of people. The first type, the way I see it, are the ones who go school shopping and see a pair of jeans and think "I saw those in teen people! I have to get them! They're so cute!" then there are the girls who go, see a pair of jeans, and think "Eeew. those were inTeen People! Better stay away from that brand from now on." Then there are the ones who are in my opinion the most honest with themselves (the non-poser, if you must) who think "Hey, didn't I see those in Teen People? They might just fit. I think I'll try them on."

So the first type are trend-followers, the second are so anti-trend that it's just silly, and the third don't really care and are comfortable with whatever they like or wear whether it's in or out. When these types of people come together, labels are formed out of discomfort around one another and possibly jealousy? This is what I've always thought, anyways.

I think that's an excellent example of three basic types of people. ^_^ Mostly I see the trend setters/followers to be the people to impose the most labeling on others, since there is the general tendancy to create fashions that are "in" and quickly go out of style to make certain groups of people feel elite simply because they have the money to waste on "fashionable" items...*Vision fills with evil destructed denium I've been stuck looking at most of the day*.

Of those three types, I see the people confortable with themselves as least likely to actually care about labels at all. Those are the kinds of people that make friends with many different groups of poeple, and don't even think about the labels, they just see people as people and take them or leave them for better or for good based on themselves.

The anit-trend people seem to usually be the people who are most volitile in their inflamitory comments about others though. Usually I think of them as the negative people who just like to tear everyone else down and make them feel bad.  

[Spionum]

Yeah. I sit with a group at lunch that is known as the "goth circle", even though it's mostly nerds and punks with their reject freshman (at my school, people adopt freshman. People in my group adopt what we call 'reject' freshman, that is, the cool ones. razz ). We have friends from all cliques and races, we still say things like "he's our hot little emo boy," but we don't care for any particular type of person. Anyone is accepted into our group. I brought my silent asian friend over one day, and this pretty punk/goth guy actually came over and shook his hand. That's how open some people are. WHILE using labels. So they (labels) aren't always bad.  

[lurichan]

sp1ffy

Yeah. I sit with a group at lunch that is known as the "goth circle", even though it's mostly nerds and punks with their reject freshman (at my school, people adopt freshman. People in my group adopt what we call 'reject' freshman, that is, the cool ones. razz ). We have friends from all cliques and races, we still say things like "he's our hot little emo boy," but we don't care for any particular type of person. Anyone is accepted into our group. I brought my silent asian friend over one day, and this pretty punk/goth guy actually came over and shook his hand. That's how open some people are. WHILE using labels. So they (labels) aren't always bad.

Perhaps then what you are saying is that labels themselves aren't usually hurtful, it's just how people use them and the context and connotations that are sometimes associated with them that can cause differences?

(And it's great to hear of a group that is like that. Not enough exist in my opinion)  

[Freya Silverflame]

I think what makes most people dumb (and irritating) is when they use labels AND racial stereptypes. I sit with a lot of people (I'm the only black person in the group) known as the "goths", and I also sit with a lot of people they call the "anime/online geeks". People always give me a hard time and say that blacks can't be goths simply because they don't see any, or they simply call me a poser. My style just happens to fit in the "goth" category, but I also mix styles too, so sometimes it's kind of "military/punk" or "alternative/emo". They also give me a hard time because I don't listen to rap/hip hop/R&B (nothing against anyone who does), and I listen to (mostly) industrial/EBM, goth, darkwave, and heavy metal. I think that's where my hatred of real live people come from. Now online, it's no big deal: almost everyone I come in contact with accepts me.  

[Krystal_digitaliS]

I agree with what you said lurichan, you seem like a smart person.

Although i don't really consider myself a goth, I am constantly having people throw wowrds such as, goff, goffix, goth, emo, punk, satanist, antri christ, and loser thrown at me. What i don't understand is why most of this is said at schol, where we wear a uniform. I have black and red hair sure, but in what way does that make me, goth, or emo or whatever the above words were? I always thought that it was about the music and what you are like on the inside, but it seems to be changing, and i'm not sure i like it.

Is it ok if i put what you said on my vampirefreaks profile luri? I'll quote you, of course.  

[lurichan]

Krystal_digitaliS

I agree with what you said lurichan, you seem like a smart person.

Although i don't really consider myself a goth, I am constantly having people throw wowrds such as, goff, goffix, goth, emo, punk, satanist, antri christ, and loser thrown at me. What i don't understand is why most of this is said at schol, where we wear a uniform. I have black and red hair sure, but in what way does that make me, goth, or emo or whatever the above words were? I always thought that it was about the music and what you are like on the inside, but it seems to be changing, and i'm not sure i like it.

Is it ok if i put what you said on my vampirefreaks profile luri? I'll quote you, of course.

I think the hardest time to deal with labels, and when they are used the most really is during middle school/high school. It's the time when people are working the hardest to figure out how to define themselves, and others, so that is when labels seem to find the most power, and can sometimes cause the most harm in some instances. People who have been labeled as outcasts, and have been shunned by everyone are most vulnerable and volitile during that time. Perhaps labels that stem from adolesence really do help shape and define people as they get older for better or for worse. Either trying to fit into the sterotype set forth by others impossed upon someone, or attempting to prove everyone else wrong.

I don't mind if you would like to quote any of this, in fact I am honored you feel so highly about my personal opinions and thoughts. ^_^  

[eereesa]

lurichan

sp1ffy

Yeah. I sit with a group at lunch that is known as the "goth circle", even though it's mostly nerds and punks with their reject freshman (at my school, people adopt freshman. People in my group adopt what we call 'reject' freshman, that is, the cool ones. razz ). We have friends from all cliques and races, we still say things like "he's our hot little emo boy," but we don't care for any particular type of person. Anyone is accepted into our group. I brought my silent asian friend over one day, and this pretty punk/goth guy actually came over and shook his hand. That's how open some people are. WHILE using labels. So they (labels) aren't always bad.

Perhaps then what you are saying is that labels themselves aren't usually hurtful, it's just how people use them and the context and connotations that are sometimes associated with them that can cause differences?

(And it's great to hear of a group that is like that. Not enough exist in my opinion)

No, labels still hurt. I know. Honestly, if someone who you really cared about, a friend you've been with for a long while, suddenly said "Loser!" to you, you wouldn't feel too good. Hell, if anyone said it to you, you'd feel bad unless that person is just plain stupid and you know it. It's human and normal to feel bad even though you shouldn't.  

[_Built_to_Offend_666]

I don't care enough about labels, conformity, or about what anyone thinks about me to care to be nonconformist. Especially to devote that much energy to being nonconformist. I look at all systems of beleif and concepts of thought the same way, conformist beleif or not. I always at least try to find reason in all other beleifs, once I find comprehendible (read: being able to translate into some sort of imargery and given examples of) and sensibly-justifiable reason to others' beleifs it is at that point I express my beleifs on that same subject. If anyone doesn't like my beleifs, ******** them. I beleive everyone is entitled to their opinion and that no opinion should ever be censored no matter how much one or even multiple people dislike that opinion.

I actually want people to label me, then I'll know they'll be more likely to remember me. wink