Predestination

[Samsoonie]

I have always had an issue with this.
Are we Christians predestined to be Christians?
or
Did we become Christians out of free will?
My brother says that we were predestined (brother has always thought very logically) but he said that he couldn't believe that God doesn't have control over all things.
While that makes sense to a degree.. my issue is that I can't believe that God would love me but not the person sitting next to me. (maybe it's because i'm an artist, my brother and I have always thought differently)

hmm.. well here's an illustration
What do you think happened when Jesus died on the cross?
Did it open a door for all of us?
or
Did it open a door for a select few (the christians) then locked that door

I know its a tough topic so just don't say things off the top of your head and be respectful to me and the others in here! biggrin you know the rules

aaand

 

[freelance lover]

"God is the author of a create-your-own-story novel!"

That is what my friends and I decided this summer. That is, we have the free will to make the choices to believe or sin or whatever and God knows the outcome of all our desicions, even the ones we don't make. You just have to choose.

There will always be logical snags in both arguments of predestination and free will. I just trust that God knows what he's doing and the things he's doing are a little too big for me to understand.  

[Ixor Firebadger]

That is an awesome analogy rofl

I likey. I'll have to remember it.

I think that God knows what choices we will make and will always give us an out. But we are the ones that have to choose to take it. I also think that we will always live out our lives according to God's will. We will touch the lives of the people we are to touch, but it's our choice whether that touch is negative or positive. Are we the example of what to do or what not to do? And will we do it the easy way, or the hard way?

I really don't think that God intends on anyone NOT choosing Him. But they are given that choice. And to answer the logic of why He would create someone He knows will never turn to Him, well, wouldn't He in essence be creating only people who will follow Him? And would that not cheapen the gift of free will?  

[Knatalie9]

I think God has predestined all of us to go to heaven. I can't believe otherwise. He is a loving God who wants ALL of us with him. And I had a catholic boyfriend once upon a time that was very, very stuck on his belief in predestination. I do not believe in it. God wants all of us to be with Him, that is why he created us.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

I'm not much for the theory of predestination. Jesus spoke of God choosing us AND free will like they weren't contradictory. I don't think that there's a list of people that God didn't WANT there with him and therefore didn't choose them. I think it's in the knowing of who would ultimately choose and who wouldn't. Being chosen does not exclude free will, even though our poor human minds can't completely wrap our minds around that concept.

But really, if God didn't want us to have free will, we would have been made like the angels. I mean, most of the big disagreement there (in lore anyhow) is that WE got free will and they didn't. That's gotta mean something when these powerful celestial beings are jealous of US.  

[Priestley]

Ryuu: I'm not sure where Jesus speaks of being chosen and still having free will at the same time. Could you point that out to me?

I don't believe in predestination. There are set things that God has promised he will do and I believe he'll carry out those things but I believe that there is an open-endedness to the different decisions we can make. There is such an absolutely huge number of different variables that I find it difficult to think that there isn't an element of us sharing at least some of the control that God has on the fate of the universe.  

[Galad Aglaron]

Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.  

[Priestley]

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Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.  

[Samsoonie]

hehe this is all very confusing ^^;; im sorry for bringing it up  

[Edith Puthie]

God gave us this free will. It is our choice, and others choices. If certain people did not follow God's word, I would not be christian. Yet, if everything is predestined then what is the point, why doesnt everyone just be born in Heaven or Hell? Also, what would be the point in Jesus' Sacrifice if everything was predestined?  

[Galad Aglaron]

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Quote:

Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"  

[Priestley]

Quote:

Quote:

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Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

Let's clear this up a bit:

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
then (c) everything in the universe is part of Him.

(a) is irrelevant. (c) does not follow (b).

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
and (b) God created the universe;
and (c) the above argument is true;
then (d) nothing in the universe does not originate from him.

(a) is irrelevant here also. The argument above this one is a logical fallacy and (d) does not follow (b).

Quote:

If (a) God is omniscient, that is, he knows all;
then (b) every event is predestined.

(b) does not follow (a). Omniscience does not imply predestination.

Quote:

As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"

Knowledge of outcomes does not negate choice.  

[freelance lover]

Quote:

Quote:

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Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"

The snag in the predestination argument is why would God create people just to predestine them to hell? Would a loving God create people just to damn them for all eternity?

Of course, the snag in the free will argument is if God already knows the outcome, are we really choosing?

Like I said, there are snags in both arguments and I don't think anyone really has the correct answer. But in addition to my choose your own adventure novel author, I also like to think God is like your best friend who knows you so well, he pretty much understand what choices you're going to make because he knows you so intimetly. But I think that even if you throw him for a loop and make an out of character desicion, he still knows the outcome.  

[Knatalie9]

freelance lover

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Predestination defies the concept of free will. If God is truly omniscient, then everything that has happened since Creation - the Fall of Lucifer, the Fall of Man, sin itself - has been planned and planned for by Him. If God already knows if you're going to choose the mustard or the ketchup, there's really no choice. He already knows you'll choose the ketchup, so He doesn't really need to put the mustard on the table, but He does so anyway to give you the illusion of free will.

Omniscience is the attribute of knowing everything. Predestination is the theory that every event is planned in advance to happen the way it does. One does not imply the other.

Knowing an event will happen as a result of a particular action is not the same as causing that event to happen.

You're probably thinking of omnipotence, in which case you're assuming a requirement of omnipotence is that it is exercised at all times.

If God is all-knowing - "He knows what I say before I say it, He knows the number of hairs on my head, He knew me before I was born", all that jazz - and it is by God set the universe in motion in the Beginning, then nothing exists that has not its uttermost source in Him. Likewise, there is nothing that happens that does not originate from Him, and since He is all-knowing, it is highly improbable that he did not know the eventual results of His actions.

As Neo so eloquently put it: "But if you already know, how can I make a choice?"

The snag in the predestination argument is why would God create people just to predestine them to hell? Would a loving God create people just to damn them for all eternity?

Of course, the snag in the free will argument is if God already knows the outcome, are we really choosing?

Like I said, there are snags in both arguments and I don't think anyone really has the correct answer. But in addition to my choose your own adventure novel author, I also like to think God is like your best friend who knows you so well, he pretty much understand what choices you're going to make because he knows you so intimetly. But I think that even if you throw him for a loop and make an out of character desicion, he still knows the outcome.

I vote God loves us too much to predestine us to hell. He formed us from the dirt. He put thought into us. If He knows every hair on our head and knows every thought before we even think of it... Why would He damn us to an eternity in hell? Away from Him? I don't understand... I think predestination is just an excuse to be lazy. We are called to witness to the entire world and make disciples of all nations, how can we do that thinking that some of us are already destined to hell? emo  

[CrystalMind]

***freelance lover wrote:

"God is the author of a create-your-own-story novel!"

That is what my friends and I decided this summer. That is, we have the free will to make the choices to believe or sin or whatever and God knows the outcome of all our desicions, even the ones we don't make. You just have to choose.

There will always be logical snags in both arguments of predestination and free will. I just trust that God knows what he's doing and the things he's doing are a little too big for me to understand.***
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Best analogy I've seen so far. The idea that God is omniscient does not negate choice. In this example, the fact that he wrote the 'book' means that he knows the outcome of every decision, but he's not forcing you to make the 'right' or 'wrong' decisions.

As another example, consider that you're asking a friend to help you out. You 'know' that this friend will help you out no matter what, asking them is merely a formality. However, they still have a choice. Picture yourself as the one being asked. Even though you'll always help this other friend out, don't you still have the choice not to?