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Sybil Unrest

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:24 pm
I've noticed that the phrase "All gods are one god" (or goddesses) seems to be treated with a bit of..contempt in M&R.

While I think it does have its difficulties - though I wouldn't mind hearing them stated again as my mind is not very clear on this - it seems very popular among eclectic pagans and didn't Doreen Valiente write something about "the" Goddess being known by many different names? (I may be mis-remembering here).

Anyway I was just wondering why it is seen as being a bit dodgy.  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:35 pm
Because it can be pretty insulting to hard polytheists, and is often talked about without care or consideration for those polytheists. It's an idea that is applied in sweeping terms by a number of people too lazy to do research, so it's bred a lot of bad blood. That's my take.

I like archetypes. I like comparative mythology. I like combining things, and I like finding connections. I totally get the appeal. But most often, it's an idea that's presented thoughtlessly and tactlessly.  

TatteredAngel


Recursive Paradox

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:39 pm
Then there's also some truly contradictory Gods or Goddesses out there that really can't be combined into one divine being without some sort of conceptual explosion.

It just doesn't make that sense to me you know?  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:04 pm
I guess its interpretation?

For example, believers of Hinduism in North America have this soft polytheistic view. However, you'd be hard pressed to find one with a similar view in India. Everyone there is a hard polytheist. So who do you trust with that example? This could be applied to other polytheistic religions.

The original traditional values or a more modern interpretation?  

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Sybil Unrest

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:15 pm
Could someone - Tea? - give a definition of the poly/monotheism terms? I am a bit stupid and don't really know what people are referring to.  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:38 pm
Monotheism: the belief there is only one supreme deity

Hard Polytheism: the belief that there are many deities, each with their own separate bodies, personalities, and powers

Soft Polytheism: the belief there are many deities, but they are all facets (or illusions) of one main supreme deity  

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TeaDidikai

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:01 pm
Sybil Unrest
Could someone - Tea?
ninja
Quote:
I am a bit stupid and don't really know what people are referring to.
Not stupid. Just not educated in a given field. (Makes you feel any better- I suck at econ. wink )

This might help.

In addition there is also Monistic Hard Polytheism and a slue of other ideologies.

Now- as to why it makes my teeth itch- it's because of the disrespect we see towards the traditions that some soft polytheists demonstrate.

I have my own UPG that causes me to be a hard polytheist. And while ethical soft polytheism just strikes be as incorrect- directly violating cultures is against UN conventions and is just plain rude.

Whatever my personal opinion about say- pot is, even if I wasn't allergic I wouldn't walk into a LDS Temple smoking a joint. The Doctrines and Covenants clearly state that such is prohibited conduct. In a similar way- many eclectic soft polytheists engage in prohibited conduct by ignoring the nature of the deity in question in favor of a homogenized soft polytheistic view.

Further- the homogenization of soft polytheistic views is taken to extremes that aren't internally consistent.

If we're talking about Dualistic Soft Polytheism (all gods are one god, all goddesses are one goddess- merely facets thereof) that doesn't mean these expressions are any more synonymous than if we start treating the dualism on a human level.

Nuri, Deo and I are all women. That doesn't mean that we relate to our womanhood in the same way. At any given point in time while I'm in "baby mode", Nuri is in "loving wife" mode and Deo is in "single mode".

Now- to assert that our names become synonymous with modes that we flit in and out of- and can thus be used synonymously with "woman" doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a construct- no matter what you apply it to.  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:42 pm
In order for all gods to be one god, "God" has to be stripped of all possible characteristics, including gender. I am a hard polytheist, but I do think there is something to a deeper energy of some sort out of which the patterns for all things emerge and descend again. However, most people who claim all gods are one god, then proceed to claim their pet characteristics are aspects of this "god", such as association with a given luminary body or opinions on human sexual relationships.

Right around the time I'm told I'm supposed to feel "at one" with the moon because "the Goddess" is a moon goddess is around the time I start to get hostile. And don't even get me STARTED on the ******** maiden, mother, crone thing. They day my choice and biological ability to get knocked up by a guy determines my psycho-social characteristics is the day someone's gonna die.  

Deoridhe
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MoonJeli

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:06 pm
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've had a question bothering me for a while.

Almost all Hindus I know are hard polytheists (and they're here in America, but from India, so I assume you mean Hindus born in America and not to Indian families?). However, I had an interesting conversation with a guy in India that was somewhat hindered by the language barrier. I've lost contact with him, and so I can't ask him for more detail, perhaps someone might know what he meant, if they're knowledgeable about Hinduism.

We were having a conversation about religion, polytheism, monotheism, pantheism and the like. When I explained what pantheism meant, he said, "Ah! I understand, because our gods are made of wood."

His exact words, it really stuck with me. I can guess what he meant, but my guess would be really uneducated and I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Any insights? XD  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:26 pm
A guess I could equate to that is what the idol/statues (murtis is the actual term) are made of, since it could be made of metal, snow, ice, wood, stone. And if you pantheism is the belief that the divine is in nature and everything, then maybe he has murtis in his household that are made of wood?  

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:43 pm
MoonJeli
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I've had a question bothering me for a while.

Almost all Hindus I know are hard polytheists (and they're here in America, but from India, so I assume you mean Hindus born in America and not to Indian families?). However, I had an interesting conversation with a guy in India that was somewhat hindered by the language barrier. I've lost contact with him, and so I can't ask him for more detail, perhaps someone might know what he meant, if they're knowledgeable about Hinduism.

We were having a conversation about religion, polytheism, monotheism, pantheism and the like. When I explained what pantheism meant, he said, "Ah! I understand, because our gods are made of wood."

His exact words, it really stuck with me. I can guess what he meant, but my guess would be really uneducated and I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Any insights? XD

My understanding, from a friend who is a Hari Krishna, is that a large part of the ceremonies around Hindu God Statues is welcoming the gods INTO the statues and making the statues INTO gods. It's a much more embodied approach to deities. The idea is a believer creates a beautiful statue, then many sacrifices are made to the statue to purify it and make it attractive to the god or gods, then the gods are invited in, and then the statue IS the god.

The approach reminds me of Voudoun, where people are "rode" by the Loa. In essence, the gods "ride" the statues in Hinduism.  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:35 am
Deoridhe

My understanding, from a friend who is a Hari Krishna, is that a large part of the ceremonies around Hindu God Statues is welcoming the gods INTO the statues and making the statues INTO gods. It's a much more embodied approach to deities. The idea is a believer creates a beautiful statue, then many sacrifices are made to the statue to purify it and make it attractive to the god or gods, then the gods are invited in, and then the statue IS the god.

The approach reminds me of Voudoun, where people are "rode" by the Loa. In essence, the gods "ride" the statues in Hinduism.


Which is causing some issues in temples in the usa, where the parking for the temple is over flowing and momentum is gather to get the temple moved by people who don't understand.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1478552

Quote:
Va. temple parking overflow creates friction
September 15, 2008 - 11:49am
By BRIGID SCHULTE
The Washington Post

CHANTILLY, Va. - On a cool marble altar lined with gold-haloed Hindu deities dressed in peacock blue robes, a Hindu priest traces the outline of each statue with the flame of an oil lamp, chanting in Sanskrit and ringing a golden bell.

He has already offered pure water. And soon he will gently fan each one with an elaborate whisk made of long, gray yak tail.

"We fan the deities because in India it is so hot," explained Rajeev Khanna. "The idea is, you take care of us, we want you to be comfortable."

This twice-daily ritual _ three times on Sunday _ is called Aarti. It is critical for the care and feeding of the gods in any Hindu temple. It is also key to understanding why this temple, Rajdhani Mandir, in suburban Fairfax County, is having so much trouble with its neighbors.

The issue is not religion, race or immigration.

It's parking.

And unless you understand Aarti, you will not understand why something as prosaic as county zoning regulations have become a lightning rod for cultural misunderstanding, with accusations of paranoia and xenophobia being thrown about.

The situation has become so volatile that county leaders threatened last week to shut down the temple if members don't get the parking under control, temple leaders said.

The problem is this: The high-tech boom and explosion in immigrants coming to the D.C. area from India have pushed the number of devotees coming to the temple far beyond anything the original builders could have imagined when they began constructing a temple for 250 people in 1998.

So, with only 87 parking spaces and sometimes hundreds if not thousands of worshippers coming and going throughout the day, many wind up parking in the neighborhood, residents say, blocking driveways and intersections, making unsafe U-turns and clogging two-lane Pleasant Valley Road. Neighbors have complained to the county so often that some have been asked not to write again. They have even sent photos and videos of cars parked on grass and sari-clad pedestrians walking in the street at night.

"My backyard is adjacent to the temple's side lot, and I have for a very long time been overwhelmed by the parking in front of my house," Mary Ann Cox wrote to county officials. "I find it difficult to pull into my driveway anytime near sunset, especially on Thursdays and most especially on full-moon nights."

Thursday evenings, the fast-growing Sai Baba sect comes to worship. And many major Hindu festivals are timed to coincide with the full moon.

The neighbors and some county officials think the answer for the temple is simple: Move.

"What happens to every other church when its congregation outgrows its church? They usually find a new location and build a new church," said Scott Miller, a defense contractor and neighborhood resident who has complained regularly and bitterly about temple traffic and parking. "It happens to churches all the time. There's nothing weird about this. They're too successful. Which is a wonderful thing."

Indeed, Rajdhani Mandir is a victim of its own success. Unlike the three or four other Hindu temples in the D.C. area that cater only to one major deity or one region of India, Rajdhani, which means "capital," welcomes everyone.

But the suggestion of moving is, "insulting" at minimum and "repugnant" at worst, one temple official says.

They can't move.

The 17 deities that sit serenely in alcoves around the maroon sanctuary hall are alive.

"They've been enlivened in a process we call prana pratishta," Khanna, a doctor and chairman of the temple's board of trustees, explained. "Once the stone statues are transformed into living deities, they are rooted to the spot. They can never be moved. That's why there are temples in India that are 2,000 years old."

And that's why priests daily perform the Aarti, which literally feeds and cares for the gods, washing some with milk and chanting prayers in Sanskrit: "Har Har Mahadev." (God is great.)

It's not as if the temple isn't trying to solve its parking problems. Leaders say they typically spend $2,000 for each of 12 to 15 religious festivals to hire off-duty police officers who direct traffic, to erect an electronic sign warning members not to park in the neighborhood and to offer a shuttle service from a nearby office park. They publish warnings on their Web site and in newsletters asking worshippers not to park in the neighborhood.

They also bought an acre next door and submitted plans to the county last July to reconfigure the space for 359 parking spaces. "We are really trying to find a solution," Khanna said. "We want to be good neighbors."

But in a zoning and culture clash Catch-22, plans that might solve most of the parking problems have been put on hold. The temple already is technically in violation of its original permit because it agreed to supply adequate parking for worshippers on-site. And there is a deep distrust among residents about the temple's plans.

The temple has a contingency contract on 33 acres across the street and is studying the feasibility of building a community center with more parking. But neighbors see this as an unwarranted expansion that would further snarl traffic. For that reason, many are opposing the one-acre parking lot.

County officials warned temple leaders at a meeting Friday that one more violation, meaning even one more person parking in the neighborhood, could be sufficient grounds to take the temple to court to shut it down, Khanna said. Barring new violations for 30 to 60 days, county officials said they would help expedite meetings with the community and begin reviewing the new parking lot plan, according to temple leaders.

On Sunday, a harried Gurtej Singh stood in the temple parking lot in a bright yellow reflective jacket and handed out directions to satellite parking. His two cars, an Isuzu Trooper and a Toyota Sienna, outfitted with flashing lights on top, are the shuttle service.

Some worshippers, wearing bright saris and long dhotis, themselves in a rush to get to the temple for Onam, a major festival for southern Indians honoring the god Hari-Hara Putra, ignored him. "This one has circled three times," an exasperated Singh said, pointing to a blue Sonata.

One block away in the neighborhood, as some residents mowed their lawns or weeded gardens, a woman in large sunglasses and a bright blue sari quickly parked her car and hurried up the sidewalk to the temple. Across the street, someone had posted a sign with bright red, emphatic letters: "Please No Temple Parking Here."


I guess people don't understand that certain sacred places can not be 'deconsecrated".  

ShadowSharrow


Nomad of Nowhere

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:28 pm
I've heard that idea applied to Hinduism a lot, and always felt that the application of that idea to Hinduism sort of went against its roots, which are very much polytheistic. In any case, if someone tells me that all gods are one, they might next be telling me that all things are god, and then I point out that I still would rather be treated as an individual- and am one for all practical purposes on this plane of existence, so it seems sort of moot when the devas or gods or whatever it is you would call them still interact with distinct personalities and relationships.

Perhaps I would agree with tattered-angel that combining certain gods and finding parallels between them can be different, especially if the homework on the deity's origins hints at cultural diffusion of some sort. As for combining all of them, I think that's a problem because part of the appeal of polytheism for me is that it allows the deities to have more personality, whereas monotheism leads to the worship of a being whose "-only description is that he is indescribable." It can come off as a cheap cop-out that allows you to say "We worship the same god!" to anyone at all, even if you're spiritual opposites.

I know it's being driven by a lot of modern neopagans, but I think some people care more about the old pagan religions, and keeping those intact, and this modern, homogenized paganism that often goes around fusing all goddesses together, threatens to distort it and steal from it it, much like Christianity did.
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:09 pm
Thank you Deoridhe, that's fascinating.  

MoonJeli


Shearaha

Aged Hunter

PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:38 am
I am a subscriber of the All Gods are One philophsy, but I don't really lump them into one category. It's hard to explain sweatdrop . I have always believed that all of the gods expressed diffrent personalities of one bieng while still maintiaing status as an individual. Just like I believe that all humans are connected in some way yet are individuals I belive the same thing of the gods. They are all individuals who need to be worshiped separatly but are also interconnected with in culture and across culture. I really hope that made sense sweatdrop  
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