An Introduction to Goth music and subculture

[Isobel Bellamy]

Right, Isobel is not happy with some people in this guild, but more at some comments eg "stop labelling, it's for soup cans etc etc". Well boo-hoo, sorry but it doesn't matter, labels are not evil, what do you people think 'prep' 'chav' and 'emo' is, huh? Labels are not bad, it's stereotypes that are the real kicker "what? aren't they the same?" NO!!! They're different!

label

An item used to identify something or someone

stereotype

A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

See. Different. Learn the meanings of words before you use them, it isn't exactly hard to sit there and pay attention in English for once instead of arsing about. You'll learn how to spell and punctuate to boot as well *ok, bad dig but I'm getting fed up*

I know the individualism argument, but frankly the longer you live the more you realise just how similar people are, its pretty hard to be 'individual' because just think of how many 'individual' people that claim to exist, makes them pretty unindividual frankly. However, just being yourself is good, it's great infact, go forth and but whoever you want to be. Don't give a crap what people think of say be they the annoying bastards that hate goths or your friends if they tell you "you're lyke SO not goth if you wear hot pink" (yes, I've heard that, and you can be goth and wear day-glo-frickin'-orange it doesn't matter.)

Onto the intro in ernest!

Ok then then Baby Bats, I am fed up of seeing bands that are blatantly non-Goth being laballed 'Goth'. Not necisserally all in this fine establishment but this place hasn't been innocent of it. This thread is mainly aimed at newbies looking into the Goth subculture but if you're a well established member come by and help if you want, I don't know everything so help would be appretiated.

The purpose of this thread is to educate you early (or even late) on what Goth music actually is, how you can tell what would be considered Goth and what absolutely, under no circumstances isn't Goth. Also, handy information on the Goth scene is added in for no extra charge

This information has been adapted from other sites and brought to you so you don't have to trawl through all those gigabytes of information.

*Baby Bat: newbie to the goth scene, sometimes used as an insult but most commonly it is a term on endeement that just means newbie, as a former Baby Bat I held my name with pride (though, since graduated into the realms of metalhead)  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Questions, questions, questions......

So, To start off, what is this term 'Goth' we seem to be so obsessed with in this guild?
Goth is a subculture, like the Punk scene. Now, be careful, not everyone who wears black, or who listens to the bands that are truly Goth is a Goth. We have off days when we don't wear black. I, for instance love to have the odd day when I don't wrestle with my corsets and have my shawls catch on every bit of velcro I come across. Sometimes wearing a full length black leather duster just isn't appealing to everyone in the height of summer, it doesn't make a person any less Goth to do this so don't get excited in "you're not Goth" cat-calling. And a lot of metal outfits are confused as Goth becasue they like the garb and have adopted and adapted it for their own. People who would be considered 'true Goths'* are quite hard to come by, especially with the arrival of the Emo scene but if they look 'Gothic' and listen to Goth music there is a good chance they are Goth. Maybe it is a severe lack of 'true Goths' in my neck of the woods but I do not automatically think someone is Goth because they're wearing black, particularly if they are teenagers seeing as they are more often than not whiny, idiotic morons that complain at every chance they get, and are really, Just. Not. Goth

*(oh please, like there's a whole bevvy of people that fit it perfectly, the whole point of goth is to be wierd, off the wall and unlike anyone and anything you've seen before)

Where does the name 'Goth' come from?
This question is met with the most interesting discusions (and fights) I've seen on the web. There are many, many people who bring up the Germanic tribes, there is also Gothic architecture and there is of course, the literature that had a fascination with death and the macabre.
No-one knows exactly how Goth music got called 'Goth' for certain,

Quote:

"in 1981 Abbo from UK Decay used the term "gothic" to describe the emerging band movement Then later, probably about 1982, Ian Astbury used the term "goths" to describe Sex Gang Children's fans." But, the term wasn't used commonly until around 1983 it was actually more commonly known as "positive punk" as dubbed by Richard North in the NME (February 1983). The first mass-media use of goth came from describing the audience for Death Cult's Berlin show, (Tom Vague in the October 1983 re-launch issue of Zig Zag (under Mick Mercer's editorship)) said "...and a pretty motley crew they are too. Hordes of Goths. It could be London..."

This was the earliest someone has found, and there are many others dotted about that came from later dates.
Since then, the term seems to have stuck so let's stay with it for the moment until it gets changed for the more politically correct "members of society who prefer the darker side of life and poetic music that gets mistaken for mindless screaming and heavy guitars"

What is 'Goth' fashion?
This is very wide-ranging, there are Goths who like the 18/19th century pre-raphaelite with a dark twist type clothes (usually called "romanti-goths"*), there are also Goths who seem to love pvc no matter how much it squeeks or how many times they need to get help to peel them off pvc or leather upholstry. Black is obviously the colour that is worn most (no-brainer there) but white and dark colours are also used, mostly red and purple. Not forgetting hot pink, it also looks seriously cute on guys (no joke) c'mon goth boys, wear the pink! Silk, velvet and crushed velvet, leather, fishnet and pvc are fabrics of choice it seems.



* I do not really like stereotypes, no-one EVER fits into them perfectly. It is mainly the automatic responce I have the problem with: the common idea generated by "romanti-goth" is someone who is anti-social and broods, sorry people but there are a few but it's like non-goths thinking all goths are wrist slashing manic-depressives. Just becasue someone dresses like that it doesn't mean they are the stereotypical "romanti-goth". Just don't stereotype, it's ridiculous that we stereotype our own subculture when we ourselves hate the stereotyping we recieve stare  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Ok, enough with the intro. What is this Goth music of which you talk of?!
This is what you wanted, and here you are.

The history (shortened version)
Goth music originated around the mid to late '70's in England. Yes, we Brits brought you tea, Punk and Goth. We know how to rock blaugh Brit pride put quietly aside,
~BUT!~ there is also Christian Death, an American band which emerged around the same time as the first wave of goth who had heard of goth but not heard any of it, not to mention other bands across the world developing a similar sound to the UK goth again, at roughly the same time.

Goth and Punk
Goth music was a break-off of Punk music, bands such as Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Cure and Joy Division were originally Punk groups, but they later became more widely acknowleged as Goth, if only as influences or a few albums. Goth only began to be defined as a separate movement with the arrival of Bauhaus. They became separated from the punk scene because whereas The Sex Pistols, The Stranglers and The Clash focused on aggressive, outward focused rock, the early goth groups were more introverted and personal.
Intresting titbit: Guess where Emo originated? Yup, as an offshoot of Punk, just like Goth. Emotive rock is a cousin of Goth via Punk.

What it sounds like
Real Goth music is very, very poetic. Most songs are poetic, rhyming etc etc. but many Goth songs are actually a poem in their own right:

Siouxsie and the Banshees: Halloween

The night is still
and the frost it bites my face
I wear my silence like a mask
and murmur like a ghost
"Trick or Treat"
"Trick or Treat"
The bitter and the sweet

The carefree days
are distant now
I wear my memories like a shroud
I try to speak but words collapse
Echoing
"Trick or Treat"
"Trick or Treat"
The bitter and the sweet

I wander though your sadness
gazing at you with scorpion eyes
Halloween......Halloween

A sweet reminder
in the ice-blue nursery
of a childish murder
of hidden lustre
and she cries
"Trick or Treat"
"Trick or Treat"
The bitter and the sweet

I wander through your sadness
gazing at you with scorpion eyes
Halloween......Halloween

Sceaming is well, not really heard. And crashing drums and thrashing guitars? Sorry, but that's the realm of industrial, metal and most other rock apart from Goth
Accusations that Goth music is about hate, glorifying death, suffering are just stupid, Goth music really sings about life but in a dark and "ominous" way.

Ok, there's poetry, what else? Any particular musical stylings that scream goth?

Indeedy there is, this is an over simplification I guess, but ti's not entirely untrue. Also it's worthy of note that the actual style of goth bands is immensely diverse, goth bands simply don't sound the same, there's rarely any similarites in sound between two bands (unless they're a rip-off, and then they're not exactly goth, goth bands value individualism above anything else, a rip-off band isn't going to get much of an audience from goths usually)
So, the typical goth songs goes like thus:

usual make-up of band:

singer/lead person
guitarist(s)
bass
drums
synths

because this explanation is so damn good I'll lift it (sorrysorrysorry to the author, I'll include a linky to their excellent work here)

Quote:

Early English Goth rock follows a standard Hard rock lineup, but often adds synths, or at least guitar effects that sound like synths. The front person strategy varies, because the music is more introspective than high energy Hard rock:

* Singer/front-person
* Guitar player
* Bass player
* Drummer
* Synth player

Goth rock is at its most basic level a combination of punk rock and new wave. Between 1979-1985 it was variously known as post-punk, alternative and new wave.

Lyrics are generally very poetic in nature, and follow melodies in the instrumentation of the song.

Guitar settings are the most notable influence to the overall musical style. Single coil pickups are important to achieve the correct sound, Fender Jazzmasters, Jaguars, & Mustangs fit the bill nicely. The guitar sound before processing ranges from clean, to warm overdrive with gain settings at approx 50%. Dynamics to this can include just turning all amp knobs to the right for chaotic amp-driven sounds found in some Bauhaus & Siouxsie material. For the most part, the combination of the following effects will give you this sound:

* Chorus
* Flange
* Analog Delay, occasional usage of tape delay, as well.
* Reverb from 0-75%

Bass is very warm and round sounding, and often uses chorus and/or flange effects.

Drums tend to be played by a human with an electronic kit, BPM ranges are from 80-150.

Synths usually have the above listed guitar attributes, and are generally based on a 'Strings' type of synth patch with a 25% attack rate. Invariably the synths are analog.

* Song composition utilizes the 1-4-5 scalular progressions that typify rock & roll music, but are often augmented or dimminished.
* Minor key themes are prevalent, but major keys are not shunned.
* Composition is usually guitar oriented, and follows surf music-like vertical scales, rather than blues-like horizontal scales.
* Focal points are often on the two semitonal increments of the particular scale.
* Various octave fingerings are often substituted for chords.
* Playing style is generally all downstrokes, to create the 'sound'.

This type of gothic rock requires a fairly capable musician, as it will often include modal scales in song construction. Additionally, finger picking & up/down arpeggiation of chords will be found in many verse parts.

Overall song construction is similar to Hard rock

* 1. an intro
* 2. verse
* 3. chorus
* 4. solo
* 5. chorus
* 6. verse
* 7. chorus
* 8. an ending

There is much room for variation, and repetition of verses & choruses.

There is also a summary very similar to this in parts on wikipediea, though which came first I'm not sure.

Goth music and Satanism/Devilworshipping.
Sorry, no-no again. Most Goth bands have no religious affiliation/stance. There are very, very few who do have Satanism/Devilworshipping in their lyrics but, they are a minority. S/D is more common other rock scenes, not the 'Goth' one but still rare. There are bands that use the S/D symbols (mainly the upside-down pentagram but also upside-down crosses more rarely) but any true connotations with S/D aren't as common.  

[Isobel Bellamy]

The bands and sub-genres under the 'Goth' banner

Listed loosly, this is by no means difinitive, some bands span generations, some are misplaced because Isobel isn't infallible, take these as a rough guide, use your brain and don't take this as completely true


Here we go, bands that are part of the goth movement and led up to/influenced these fine musicians in thier path to darkness.

You owe goth to these people
Not Goth in any way but they did influence some of the finest goth artists into becoming beakons of misery and darkness

David Bowie
The Velvet Underground
The Doors
Alice Cooper
The Stooges
T-Rex

The Godfathers(and mothers) of Goth
Do not assume that these artists are goth, many have moved on from their goth sound yet kept their defining goth look, again we owe goth to these people but they don't all sound completely goth still. But that being said these bands were there in the beginning (and a little after even) and influenced everyone thereafter (even though many won't admit it)

Joy Division - both albums are excellent influences on goth, weren't in the real goth movement due to Ian Curtis committing suicide, later became New Order which evolved into a New Wave/Dance group
Siouxsie and the Banshees - (classic goth sound until Nocture - later albums strayed from goth)
The Cure - Faith, Seventeen Seconds and Pornography, less influential than the banshee's at the time, but launched goth into greater fame when they turned more poppy and therefore more popular
Depeche Mode - not actually goth, but very influential
Bauhaus - consistently goth, can't really be classed as anything else comfortably
UK Decay Abbo was responsible for the movement being called 'gothic', gotta be mentioned even if they are almost forgotten now, also important in the very beginning of Goth.

Worthy of note: The Damned - their lead singer dressed up as a vampire


First Generation
1979-1985 roughly, the birth of goth.
Some bands experimented with but then moved away from goth, some stuck with it, others disbanded, but this is when goth really took off and became a musical genre of it's own, bow down and experience these trail-blazers of goth.

Bauhaus
Sex Gang Children
Southern Death Cult
Danse Society
The Virgin Prunes (note: complete weirdos)
Killing Joke
Theatre of Hate
Play Dead
Skeletal Family
Specimen
Alien Sex Fiend
Christian Death
The Birthday Party
Kommunity FK
The Lords of the New Church
Tones on Tail
Xmal Deutschland

Second Generation
1985-1995 roughly,
Goth was really getting popular by this point, please note, due to the influence of the New Romantic/New Wave movement some of these bands can be classed as both

The Sisters of Mercy - around during the first gen but really gained popularity during 1985 onwards
Fields of the Nephilim
The Mission UK
Mephisto Walz
March Violets
.45 Grave
Ausgang
Children on Stun
Clan of Xymox
Creaming Jesus
The Damned
Dreamtime
Flesh for Lulu
Gene Loves Jezebel
Red Lorry Yellow Lorry


Third Generation
1995- roughly, the future of goth is now.
Just as the second generation was intertwined with New Wave, this generation is becomeing incresingly influenced by metal, thus creating goth-metal. A fusion of both the raw harsh guitars of metal but also the lyrics, imagery and twangs of goth. I'm a great fan of goth-metal by the way, I'm not goth, I'm a metal head, but I love my goth as well and this is a great compromise.

Switchblade Symphony
London After Midnight
Children On Stun
Rosetta Stone
The Last Dance
The Deep Eynde
The Cruxshadows
Sunshine Blind
Trance to the Sun
The Empire Hideous
The Shroud
Voltaire
Corpus Delicti
The Deep Eynde
Faith and the Muse
Fields of Aplomb
Ikon
The 69 Eyes  

[Isobel Bellamy]

You like goth? You may also like these:

Goth artists also excell in other genres, here's a few examples, also look into these things because they're great.
(swiped from wikipedia.com, I'm tired and these are nice lists and summarys - any complaints to wikipedia, not me. I merely copied and pasted, this isn't a self written thread as I mentioned in the intro I've just gahtered things from around the web and list where I got the info from.)

Darkwave

Darkwave is a generic term which refers to an 1980s movement that coincided with the popularity of new wave. Building upon the basic principles of new wave, darkwave evolved through the addition of dark, thoughtful lyrics and an undertone of sorrow.
~NOTE:~There have been differing uses of the term 'Darkwave' over the years

Artists:
Anne Clark
Gary Numan
Fad Gadget
Psyche
Depeche Mode
Bauhaus
Joy Division
The Cure
Cocteau Twins
Clan Of Xymox

Das Ich
Deine Lakaien
Lacrimosa
Diary of Dreams
The Frozen Autumn

Deathrock/ Death Rock
The cousin of Goth

Deathrock (also spelled death rock) is a term used to identify a subgenre of punk rock which incorporated elements of horror and first emerged most prominently in the West Coast of the United States during the late 1970s and early 1980s. The music and the scene of "modern" (post-1990) Deathrock bands have a stronger post-punk influence than the earlier Deathrock bands. Additionally, the term "deathrock" is used as a synonym for first generation gothic rock sometimes written as Deathrock/Batcave.

Classic Death Rock (until 1990)
45 Grave
Alien Sex Fiend
Ausgang
Bone Orchard
Burning Image
Castration Squad
Christian Death
Current 93
The Damned
Death Cult
Death Ride 69
Fahrenheit 451
The Flesh Eaters
Flesh for Lulu
Gun Club
Holy Cow
H-Bomb White Noise
Kommunity FK
Mighty Sphincter
The Mob
Naked & the Dead
Nervous Gender (arguable, could be classified as punk)
Nichts (Germany)
Of A Mesh
Samhain
Savage Republic
Screams for Tina
Sex Gang Children
Shadow Project
Skeletal Family Also Still around. Latest album 2005
Sorrow (Rose McDowall)
Specimen
Super Heroines
TSOL
Theater of Ice
Voodoo Church

Modern Death Rock (1990-)
A Spectre is Haunting Europe (Vancouver)
Antiworld (Portland, OR)
Astrovamps (CA)
Bella Morte (VA)
Black Ice (CA)
Bloody Dead & Sexy (Germany)
The Brides (NY)
Cancerslug (Alabama)
Cinema Strange (CA)
Deadchovsky (France)
Deadfly Ensemble (CA)
Dinah Cancer and the Grave Robbers (resurrected 45 Grave) (CA)
Eat Your Make Up (France)
Frankenstein (CA)
Frank the Baptist (CA)
Gorgonas (Mexico)
La Pesta Negra (Spain)
The Last Days Of Jesus (Slovakia)
Miguel and the Living Dead (Poland)
Murder at the Registry (Germany)
The Phantom Limbs (CA)
p***s Flytrap (previously featuring Dinah Cancer of 45 Grave)
Scarlet's Remains (CA)
Sixteens (Berlin)
Sleeping Children, The (France)
The Sleepfarmers
Tragic black (UT)
The Vanishing


Gothic Metal and Gothic Doom/Goth-Metal
Evolution/blending of Goth and Metal

Gothic Metal

Gothic metal is sometimes considered a loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is defined by its composition of the music and its aesthetics, leaving individual bands to provide different interpretations. It also makes unique use of dual vocalists, keyboards and acoustic guitars, making it distinctive in comparison to other metal genres.

Gothic metal tends to refer to doom metal, black metal, and death metal for its composition, heavily synthesizing the styles of their melody and rhythm ideas in its guitar work, causing the music to be aggressive and fast paced. Acoustic guitars are sometimes present in gothic metal, and in bands that use two guitars, the second guitarist is often found playing a form of acoustic guitar. The acoustic guitar is used in the same way as its electronic counterpart, and is normally found playing melodies that are as equally complex. The bass guitar in gothic metal usually plays lower tones akin to doom metal combined with the aggression of black and death metal, often being the main contributor to the atmosphere in songs.

Gothic-Doom/Goth Metal

In the late 1990's-2000 bands within the gothic metal genre had become somewhat prominent, and the genre symphonic metal had begun to emerge from it. At this point, several bands started to go the opposite path to symphonic metal for their, adding highly morbid themes, slowing down to a more slow-paced aggression akin to gothic metal, and began to abandon the Beauty And The Beast vocals that had become part of the gothic metal genre.

During this period, a boom of new bands occurred. These bands combined aspects directly from early 90s gothic metal with aspects of various forms of doom metal. Bands such as Chalice, Draconian, Even Vast, and Left Hand Soloution all released albums or produced demo's at this time. These bands used various elements of gothic metal and doom metal in varied and undefined methods. This included the romantic lyrics and instrument usage with morbid atmospheres and slow, droning guitar work. These bands also often found inspiration from doom-death bands, often utilizing the same gothic rock mannerisms found in doom-death almost subconsciously. These new bands, with their morbid sound and nature, and noticeable gothic metal elements, were often debated as being gothic metal or doom metal, before finally being settled on as being 'gothic-doom'.

Gothic metal bands

Aeternitas
Aion
Atargatis
Dakrua
Darkwell
Divine Nightmare
Evereve
Forever Slave
Galadriel
Gothic Sex
Keltgar
Labores Somnium
Lacuna Coil
Macbeth
Mandragora Scream
Mandrake
Mortal Love
Myriads
On Thorns I Lay
Penumbra
Silentium
Sirenia
Theatre of Tragedy (earlier works)
Trail of Tears
Tristania
Utopian
Vampiria
Xandria

Gothic-Doom metal bands

Artrosis
Ashes You Leave
Autumn (United States)
Avrigus
Chalice
Cryptal Darkness
Devlin
Draconian
Elegeion
Elfonia
Eternal Grieve
For My Pain
Forest of Shadows
Lacrimas Profundere
Lacrimosa
Mandragora Scream
Moonspell
Mourning Beloveth
Paradise Lost
Poisonblack
Theatre Des Vampires
The Gathering (earlier works)
The Sins Of Thy Beloved
The Wounded
Therion
Tiamat
To/Die/For
Tristania (earlier works)
Type O Negative - very much recommended
Visceral Evisceration


Dark cabaret

Dark cabaret is characterized by driving piano and by deep female or male vocals influenced by the style of Kurt Weill, Marlene Dietrich, Cole Porter, Danny Elfman, Nina Hagen, PJ Harvey, Tom Waits, Nick Cave, and even Roxy Music/Brian Eno. Alternatively, the music may center around another instrument such as the cello or accordion, or even the voice.

Artists:
Abby Travis
Alacartoona
Marc Almond
Amoree Lovell
Antony and the Johnsons
Beat Circus
Belladonna 9ch
Charming Hostess
Cinema Strange
Circus Contraption
Clara Engel
Clare Fader
Danny Elfman
Death in October
Devics
The Dresden Dolls
Eastside Sinfonietta
Faun Fables
Gitane Demone
Gogol Bordello
Hannah Fury
HUMANWINE
Jason Webley
Jill Tracy
Katzenjammer Kabarett
Kitten On The Keys
Kurt Weill
Lily's Puff
Lydia Lunch
Man Man
Marilyn Manson (The Golden Age of Grotesque era)
Marlene Dietrich
Morgan Grace
Natassja Noctis
Nicki Jane
Nico
Nina Hagen
PJ Harvey
Rasputina
Reverend Glasseye
Revue Noir
Rosenstolz
Rosin Coven
Rozz Williams
Sex Gang Children
Sopor Aeternus & The Ensemble of Shadows
Schneewittchen
The Deadfly Ensemble
The Hellblinki Sextet
The Slow Poisoners
The Tiger Lillies
The Virgin Prunes
The World//Inferno Friendship Society
Tin Hat Trio
Two Ton Boa
Ute Lemper
Voltaire
Xyra & Verborgen  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Bands that are NOT 'Goth' but mistaken as 'Goth'

Do I have to write this out? most people should have a basic over view by now..alright, basic rules of what's not goth:

screaming.
loud guitars.
uninsightful lyrics (read: insulting exes with cries of b***h! whore!, goth bands insult their exes with something along the lines of "my dear departed lover, rest in peace for I surely will now that I don't have to look upon your face" only better and more poetical than my ad-lib)
Did I mention screaming?

List of random bands/artists usually mistaken for Goth:

Marylin Mason - the main culprit of mistaken goth identity, mainly due to the "ain't nothing but a goth thing" stuff
Nine Inch Nails - and other Industrial bands
Cradle of Filth - just...no....
Slipknot - hell no
My Chemical Romance - plus any emo, emoesque, post-hardcore etcetc bands (not even going to try to categorise mcr, too many fights will ensue...)
Evanescence - just because the singer looks the part a goth band does not make
Lacuna Coil - Look at "Symphonic Black Metal" Amazing band, but again a no-no on the goth-o-meter
Opeth - and the survey says *big loud noise of doom* nope again I'm afraid
HIM - Nononono, too metally
Nightwish - SBM yet again, darn those gothy dressed people
Murderdolls - Industrials, cyber goths the lot of 'em

Whole load more but Isobel is tired, provide suggestions and I'll put them up with credits to the good thinkers in the guild.  

[Kostbarer Alptraum]

Craddle of Filth, Lacuna Coil, Otep, HIM, Nightwish, Murderdolls...I think these bands fit under the 'Goth' category...

And I don't know why, but for some reason, people think Linkin Park is goth, which is hilarious.

 

[themagikat]

i love it when people say they are gothic due to linkin park... it fills my day with joy.

under the gothic music, i would put most death/black/gothic metal (all pretty much the same). most, not always, there are always exceptions. also, i know people who literally think cradle of filth is their bible. what people need to realize is that most of the time, dark metal (as i shall refer to it from now on) is a fancy word for "scary stories with loud music".

Typically the songs are dark fairy tales or a narration of past events, NOT the worshiping of satan or any other diety. true they may have that affiliated within the lyrics, but the piece is about the character and the story, not the almighty satan. (that was sarcastic, btw)  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Hmmm, those bands don't really fit under 'Goth' darkdreams666, they are far too loud and metally for 'Goth', listen to The Cure and Depache Mode for examples of 'Goth'. Like I put in the description of 'Goth' music,

Nurotic 'Goth' music fan (or anally retentive according to some)

"Sceaming is well, not really heard. And crashing drums and thrashing guitars? Sorry, but that's the realm of industrial, metal and most other rock apart from 'Goth'"

So that rules out Craddle of Filth, HIM, and Murderdolls immedeately.
I haven't heard otep here so I can't comment on them and I'm afraid Lacuna Coil and Nightwish, although very good, have loud metal elements in them so they are not 'Goth'

And yeah. Linkin Park 'GOTH'?!!! *Shudders* I hadn't thought people would be that stupid....until I went on here.....I'm partial to some Linkin Park when I'm in a bad mood and don't want to offend my mum with lots of swearing (she gets a little techy with swears), but Goth?....no chance. Not even if they dressed up like the Cure at a funeral.  

[Kostbarer Alptraum]

Oh never mind then. See? I told you I had no taste in music whatsoever. xp

Hmm...what about Evanescence? Or Advenged Sevenfold? Or Atreyu? ...maybe not...I better shut up...

 

[themagikat]

okay so its agreed linkin park is gothic right? put it on the list then... (jk...)

personally, I do see CoF, Moonspell, Insomnium, etc as gothic music. keep in mind that while there are many different gothic personalities, there are also variations of gothic music. yes, softer is often more romantic and leans towards that end of the gothic compass, however there is still the metal scene.

Also, to read Cradle's lyrics (as well as others... Cradle is my example mainly because they seem to be the most well heard-of in their genre) without listening to the song itself, one would definitally place it under the gothic list (plenty of examples: read most of soundtrack "Midian" or "damnation and a day"). This also brings out the fact of what you were talking about. You said gothic isnt the whole metal bit but thats to put a definite stereotype thus reading "any band with a loud guitar or drums is not gothic." which is not the case. perhaps "most bands..." but not any or all in the least.  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Well, I can see where people get confused with the whole metal/goth music thing, metal can be influenced by goth music, in it's lyrics and arrangement, hence CoF lyrics sounding Gothicesque.
But it can't be the other way around, Goth just isn't loud, there's goth metal, which is loud and has gothic lyrics but it isn't technically 'pure goth' goth purists don't count it as goth, but a goth and metal hybrid but it's mainly considered metal.  

[Muted Faith9]

Austin found a thread in the music forum which perfectly describes goth music, but it seems to have fallen off the first page, so whenAustin finds it he will send you the link.  

[Muted Faith9]

Mainly, Austin knows that it iss usually brooding, there is never screaming or devil worship, it shows that life is great, but can be a very dark place to exist, you often have to turn it up to hear the lyrics.  

[Isobel Bellamy]

Goth music 101 right? Excellent description of Goth music there, I'm not too good at describing myself, I might be cheeky and ask to use the list of Goth bands on there because I havn't heard of some (to my eternal shame)