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 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:49 pm
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Hi. Thank you for coming. Someone who I trust guessed that I may be a "Eclectic Neo-Pagan." Can anyone please define that for me and point me in the direction of a credible source of information about it. Is it a specific religion or an overall term that includes other mini groups with different beliefs?
I'm going to do my best to describe what I currently think I believe in a moment. I use the word think because I am not fully confident in my beliefs but they do seem to be logical. My brain wishes there was proof so that I could be sure about religion and so far the best I seem to be able to do is settle for what seems most plausible. But first I think it would help to briefly talk about my past spiritual beliefs. If you don't like reading this huge paragraph feel free to skip to the next one. My entire family is Jewish and most of them (and there are a lot of them) are very observant. My mother is very open minded but she personally believes very strongly in Judaism and she sent me to Jewish private school my entire life before high school. Maybe partially because it was thrown down my throat I rebelled from it, although my sister seemed to have the opposite effect, ...but mainly it just didn't make sense to me. The old testament didn't seem to make any sense to me. It was filled with flaws and hypocrisies and stories that made me question if I thought the monotheistic god's motives were even just. I started to think that it was unlikely that the world was created at all as if some higher power put everything together like playdoe. I figured that people back in history, and still today even, could not answer how we got here and invented the idea of God to make themselves feel better. I told myself that nobody who died had ever come back so there was no proof that any of us could be aware of an afterlife and that it was just so people would not be depressed that when you die it is all over. So I figured that it was all science and the big bang theory and that even though we don;t have all the answers, the answers still exist and eventually we may scientifically figure them out. When I learned about Christianity (which I was sheltered from and then compelled by guilt not to study at first) it seemed just as unlikely as Judaism. I never could be sure of anything so I decided I was an agnostic. I met some people who said they were Wiccans. Recently I have come to the conclusion that I can not be sure if they actually were or not. The religion seemed so different then anything I had studied before and since I liked the people I decided it would be worthwhile to investigate it. I read some books that I also recently learned may not have been the most credible sources of information on Wicca. But at the time I decided from what I read that I agreed with many things about it and I became a solitary practitioner Wiccan (if that even exists, any info is appreciated) I liked certain aspects of the religion (if that is rly the religion I learned about) such as: the Wiccan rede (the idea that I had freedom as long as I never caused harm), taking responsibility for my own positive or negative actions (not just giving the credit to the monotheistic god or the devil), and the three fold rule (which even though I could not be certain exists, seemed to make sense. Although I could certainly argue that trying to make sense of exactly how you get paid back for your actions is your assumption and can;t be proven in stone.) I stopped liking the rituals and spells and holidays (even though I did like the idea of worshiping nature and appreciating when natural occurrences such as eclipses occur.) I learned about Thoreau in school and transcendentalism seemed to be the perfect answer. I could believe in the oversoul, thus worshiping nature yet not feel as if I am not practicing int he religion by not having rituals and holidays. However, I still have so many questions and uncertainties. I'll probably never know but I really wish I knew more about the beginning of time. How can something begin? There had to be something before the beginning? Which means that nothing could count as a beginning. But everything starts, so what started the first start. It just makes no sense and is fascinating and infuriating how I can't know. Maybe it had something to do with negative numbers infinitely being able to go back more and more but that is not enough to be sure.
Anyhow. I think I beleive that it is most likely that there is something out there that is intangable that is part of nature that helps teverythign react to everythign else. I'll try to be more clear. Everythign in nature has a reaction. Scientifically an element will be effected by a change you make and soemhow with our free will whenever we do anything (speak, act consciously, act unconsciously, etc.) it creates a change to everything else and all of nature has to react...but instead of reacting in a random way I feel somehow it seems that everything reacts in a way to balance everythign out...negative and positive if you want to call it that. so it seems that such a perfect system were everything is constantly re-being put into perfect balance is something amazing and something that should be worshiped. I am part of it and so is everyone and everything. However, jsut because it seems this way to me it still can;lt be proven because nature is so complicated. There are so many things going on out there that we have no idea about. Too many variables. I have some faith in this aspect of nature because it seems to occur. When I analyze things carefully I start to appreciate all of the little positive things constantly occurring that most people seem to not realize. is o even everything out. Even though I am still figuring this all out and I long to become more confident in my beliefs so that I am more at ease and also feeling like I have a deep understanding of what I believe in..I was hoping that anyone who had some insights could tell me if what I currently believe is part of an established specific religion. Any other thoughts or guidance or if you have a different religion that seems like if I learned about it it might appeal to me is extremely appreciated. Also please tell me if I may be of assistance to anyone anyhow.
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Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:54 pm
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By my reckoning,
neo-pagan includes a number of religions and traditions
that value freedom, responsibility, honor;
acknowledges and cherishes the connection
between the Earth we spring from, ourselves,
and the Spirit that inspires us to create and to grow;
and tend towards polytheism.
Among them are Asatru and other flavors of heathenry;
Celtic recon; Hellenic recon; Native American traditions,
and so forth.
I'm on the fence about whether Buddhism fits under the pagan umbrella.
Wicca, I try to respect it, but it's roots seem shallow and scattered.
There are hard polytheists and soft polytheists.
Hard polytheists tend towards seeing all gods from all traditions as distinct persons.
Soft polytheists are more inclined to say things like "Aphrodite and Freya are different expressions of one archetype"
A conversation I had recently:
Me: names can be powerful. I think Thor is a stronger name than Taranis.
Him: Thor and Taranis are totally different people. They're as different as you and I are.
Me: but you think Lugh is a pale interpretation of Odin.
Him: that's only my opinion.
Me: *?*
What you've said about your beliefs I would think fit with a number of traditions. I think there is power in finding a tradition that feels right; at home with.
Eclecticism is ok, but even more important to do your homework lest you offend someone. Some traditions are more open than others.
I've always had pagan leanings.
Things started to clarify for me when I fell in love with Norse folk music, and then auditioned for a band that had listed in their influences Norse folk music, whence I met Asatruar for the first time.
Welcome, and good tidings on your journey.
you might start here for more information:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:04 am
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patience1984 Hi. Thank you for coming. Someone who I trust guessed that I may be a "Eclectic Neo-Pagan."
Hey! Welcome to the Guild, I'm glad you came.
Quote: Can anyone please define that for me and point me in the direction of a credible source of information about it. Is it a specific religion or an overall term that includes other mini groups with different beliefs?
It's sort of an encompassing term for a group of people who do not belong to the Abrahamic faiths, and tend to have a variety of beliefs that don't fit into one certain religion. They may have unverified personal gnosis, or they may be taking certain beliefs and practices from a variety of religions. I'm sure someone else can define it better than me. They do not have a unified dogma.
Most people who claim to be Wiccan are actually eclectic neo-pagan, so that shows you a lot of the common eclectic neo-pagan beliefs there -- nature worship, celebrating solstices and equinoxes, polytheistic (many soft, but not all), etc. But they are definitely not the only beliefs, nor do all eclectic neo-pagans believe those things. They're just common.
Quote: My brain wishes there was proof so that I could be sure about religion and so far the best I seem to be able to do is settle for what seems most plausible.
You'll probably like this place and some of the people here who are regulars in M&R then. smile Though deities and similar beliefs are unfalsifiable (can't be proven or disproven), a lot of people in this Guild and on M&R (though certainly not all, you have to weed out trolls and so on) approach religion a great deal of reference, citation, and logic, so that at least there is a clear understanding of scripture, history, origin and context, among other things.
Quote: I met some people who said they were Wiccans. Recently I have come to the conclusion that I can not be sure if they actually were or not. The religion seemed so different then anything I had studied before and since I liked the people I decided it would be worthwhile to investigate it. I read some books that I also recently learned may not have been the most credible sources of information on Wicca. But at the time I decided from what I read that I agreed with many things about it and I became a solitary practitioner Wiccan (if that even exists, any info is appreciated)
It does not exist outside of coven initiation. That is, you can not be a solitary Wiccan if you have not been initiated into a lineaged coven. Once a person as been initiated by a member of the opposite sex into a coven that traces itself back to Gardner, then it may happen that they leave the coven in the future.
Quote: I liked certain aspects of the religion (if that is rly the religion I learned about) such as: the Wiccan rede (the idea that I had freedom as long as I never caused harm),
The Rede is just advice, not law, and it does not prohibit causing harm, simply says if go to town with things that don't cause harm. The Ardanes are the laws of Wicca.
Quote: taking responsibility for my own positive or negative actions (not just giving the credit to the monotheistic god or the devil), and the three fold rule (which even though I could not be certain exists, seemed to make sense. Although I could certainly argue that trying to make sense of exactly how you get paid back for your actions is your assumption and can;t be proven in stone.)
I think not taking responsibility for ones' actions is more a function of the individual, and some small sects within larger groups, than most religions. Most religions encourage responsibility.
As for the three-fold law, it is not part of Wicca, but it is embraced by many eclectic neo-pagans. I do not know the origin of it.
Quote: I stopped liking the rituals and spells and holidays (even though I did like the idea of worshiping nature and appreciating when natural occurrences such as eclipses occur.)
I doubt the rituals and spells you learned and the holidays you celebrated were Wiccan. They probably fell under eclectic neo-pagan.
Wicca is a secret society; unless you are initiated, you can't know its secrets. Anyone who claims to be teaching you the core of Wicca is either lying or breaking their oaths.
It is orthopraxic -- based on correct practice, rather than correct belief.
It is a fertility witchcult -- in the words of its own founder. It has nothing to do with worshiping nature.
Quote: I learned about Thoreau in school and transcendentalism seemed to be the perfect answer. I could believe in the oversoul, thus worshiping nature yet not feel as if I am not practicing int he religion by not having rituals and holidays. However, I still have so many questions and uncertainties. I'll probably never know but I really wish I knew more about the beginning of time. How can something begin? There had to be something before the beginning? Which means that nothing could count as a beginning. But everything starts, so what started the first start. It just makes no sense and is fascinating and infuriating how I can't know. Maybe it had something to do with negative numbers infinitely being able to go back more and more but that is not enough to be sure.
Many of those questions are philosophical in nature, and others are definitely scientific.
You might be interested in really studying physics. Some of your questions are things that physicists are studying and struggling with. Time is an extremely complex and fascinating subject, and you could find some great books out there touching on topics like "the beginning" and "starting".
You might start out with some popular science type physics books -- books written to help explain science to laypersons. Books like "A Brief History of Time" and "The Universe in a Nutshell" by Stephen Hawking are a great place to start. I'm no scientist or mathematician, so I can't vouch for the accuracy of many science books, but I really enjoyed "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, as well. (And on a related subject but not quite on topic, "The Fire Within the Eye" by David Park is an awesome historical essay on the study of light, and how said study has been influenced by religion.)
Quote: Anyhow. I think I beleive that it is most likely that there is something out there that is intangable that is part of nature that helps teverythign react to everythign else. I'll try to be more clear. Everythign in nature has a reaction. Scientifically an element will be effected by a change you make and soemhow with our free will whenever we do anything (speak, act consciously, act unconsciously, etc.) it creates a change to everything else and all of nature has to react...but instead of reacting in a random way I feel somehow it seems that everything reacts in a way to balance everythign out...negative and positive if you want to call it that. so it seems that such a perfect system were everything is constantly re-being put into perfect balance is something amazing and something that should be worshiped. I am part of it and so is everyone and everything. However, jsut because it seems this way to me it still can;lt be proven because nature is so complicated. There are so many things going on out there that we have no idea about. Too many variables. I have some faith in this aspect of nature because it seems to occur. When I analyze things carefully I start to appreciate all of the little positive things constantly occurring that most people seem to not realize. is o even everything out. Even though I am still figuring this all out and I long to become more confident in my beliefs so that I am more at ease and also feeling like I have a deep understanding of what I believe in..I was hoping that anyone who had some insights could tell me if what I currently believe is part of an established specific religion. Any other thoughts or guidance or if you have a different religion that seems like if I learned about it it might appeal to me is extremely appreciated. Also please tell me if I may be of assistance to anyone anyhow.
I don't know if it fits perfectly, but judging by this and the fact you find Thoreau's views resonate with you, you might look into scientific or natural pantheism, as well as transcendentalism.
Scientific pantheists do not hold any beliefs in a deity or greater being, but rather find that nature itself, though not an entity, it is worthy of reverence and awe.
Nature in this sense includes humans and all aspects of creation, including the things that man has made (all things are a part of nature; humans could not create man-made chemicals if it wasn't for our own existence and study of chemicals in nature, and the basic building blocks we employ).
Science is seen as a part of the process of revering and understanding the universe.
Some pantheists believe in a supernatural or spiritual aspects to existence, but it is not inherently part of the natural pantheistic beliefs. Ritual is seen as a way of enriching one's life, but not as necessary, so some scientific pantheists celebrate natural events such as solstices and and find it rewarding, and others feel no need to.
It is understood that we can't explain all of nature. Part of our fascination with the universe is the mystery.
Anyway, just something you might want to look up and read more about. I'm not sure it will fit for you, as it doesn't have any inherent beliefs regarding balance. |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:34 am
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patience1984 Someone who I trust guessed that I may be a "Eclectic Neo-Pagan." Can anyone please define that for me and point me in the direction of a credible source of information about it. Is it a specific religion or an overall term that includes other mini groups with different beliefs?
Eclectic: Selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles
Neo-Pagan: A person who practices a contemporary form of paganism.
(Definitions selected from Merriam Webster)
Quote: My entire family is Jewish and most of them (and there are a lot of them) are very observant. My mother is very open minded but she personally believes very strongly in Judaism and she sent me to Jewish private school my entire life before high school. Maybe partially because it was thrown down my throat I rebelled from it, although my sister seemed to have the opposite effect, ...but mainly it just didn't make sense to me. The old testament didn't seem to make any sense to me. It was filled with flaws and hypocrisies and stories that made me question if I thought the monotheistic god's motives were even just. I started to think that it was unlikely that the world was created at all as if some higher power put everything together like playdoe. I figured that people back in history, and still today even, could not answer how we got here and invented the idea of God to make themselves feel better. I told myself that nobody who died had ever come back so there was no proof that any of us could be aware of an afterlife and that it was just so people would not be depressed that when you die it is all over. So I figured that it was all science and the big bang theory and that even though we don;t have all the answers, the answers still exist and eventually we may scientifically figure them out.
I'll also point out that YHVH states he is the author of good and evil. (Yisheyah 45:7)
Quote: I became a solitary practitioner Wiccan (if that even exists, any info is appreciated)
Quote: I liked certain aspects of the religion (if that is rly the religion I learned about) such as: the Wiccan rede (the idea that I had freedom as long as I never caused harm),
Quote: taking responsibility for my own positive or negative actions (not just giving the credit to the monotheistic god or the devil)
Quote: and the three fold rule (which even though I could not be certain exists, seemed to make sense. Although I could certainly argue that trying to make sense of exactly how you get paid back for your actions is your assumption and can;t be proven in stone.)
Quote: I stopped liking the rituals and spells and holidays (even though I did like the idea of worshiping nature and appreciating when natural occurrences such as eclipses occur.
Quote: so it seems that such a perfect system were everything is constantly re-being put into perfect balance is something amazing and something that should be worshiped.
As a final note- you were born to a Chosen People. Rejection of this carries some important things for you to consider- such as the different Generational Curses as spoken of in Shemot 34:6-7 and Devarim 11:26-28.
That being said- how familiar are you with the concept of Shekhinah? |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:40 am
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CricketBrain By my reckoning, neo-pagan includes a number of religions and traditions that value freedom, responsibility, honor; acknowledges and cherishes the connection between the Earth we spring from, ourselves, and the Spirit that inspires us to create and to grow; and tend towards polytheism.
I'll also note that Long House Religion and the other Native Tribal Trads are not Neo-Pagan in nature.
Quote: I'm on the fence about whether Buddhism fits under the pagan umbrella. |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:03 am
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:54 am
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TeaDidikai CricketBrain By my reckoning, neo-pagan includes a number of religions and traditions that value freedom, responsibility, honor; acknowledges and cherishes the connection between the Earth we spring from, ourselves, and the Spirit that inspires us to create and to grow; and tend towards polytheism. I'm going to contest this and point out that it is a personal opinion likely based on personal experiences rather than an objective understanding of what a Neo-Pagan is.
Yes, you're correct, thus I opened with "By my reckoning..."
although I could have been clearer about it.
TeaDidikai I'll also note that Long House Religion and the other Native Tribal Trads are not Neo-Pagan in nature.
Are they pagan but not neo-pagan? Neither? There seem to be almost as many definitions of pagan and neo-pagan as there are people. Neo-pagan to me implies reconstruction. Native American culture and traditions were disrupted much later in history than were Native European culture and traditions.
Does pagan, being a European word, apply only to European traditions? I've sometimes wondered whether it's right for me to think of myself as pagan (a Hellenic word) when heathen (a Germanic word) means much the same thing but has closer ties to the tradition that feels right to me.
Quote: Quote: I'm on the fence about whether Buddhism fits under the pagan umbrella. Why?
Sorry, I don't have an adequate answer for that.
It's one of those thoughts that kind of came out of nowhere,
and I haven't yet "reverse-engineered" it. |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:17 pm
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CricketBrain Are they pagan but not neo-pagan? Neither? There seem to be almost as many definitions of pagan and neo-pagan as there are people. Neo-pagan to me implies reconstruction. Native American culture and traditions were disrupted much later in history than were Native European culture and traditions.
Can you provide support that the traditions of all the different tribes died out completely and were then reconstructed?
My personal experience with Long House religion suggests that this is not the case.
Quote: Does pagan, being a European word, apply only to European traditions? I've sometimes wondered whether it's right for me to think of myself as pagan (a Hellenic word) when heathen (a Germanic word) means much the same thing but has closer ties to the tradition that feels right to me.
Quote: Sorry, I don't have an adequate answer for that. It's one of those thoughts that kind of came out of nowhere, and I haven't yet "reverse-engineered" it. |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:21 pm
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CricketBrain Are they pagan but not neo-pagan? Neither? There seem to be almost as many definitions of pagan and neo-pagan as there are people.
Neo-pagan: new pagan
paleo-pagan: old pagan
CricketBrain Neo-pagan to me implies reconstruction. Native American culture and traditions were disrupted much later in history than were Native European culture and traditions.
It's not so much disruption that's the problem. It's destruction.
CricketBrain I've sometimes wondered whether it's right for me to think of myself as pagan (a Hellenic word) when heathen (a Germanic word) means much the same thing but has closer ties to the tradition that feels right to me.
I've never understood the difference between pagan and heathen, apart from the etymological difference.
Side note: What age are you? |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:24 pm
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:50 pm
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:02 pm
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CuAnnan CricketBrain Neo-pagan to me implies reconstruction. Native American culture and traditions were disrupted much later in history than were Native European culture and traditions. It's not so much disruption that's the problem. It's destruction.
Yes, disruption lies on the path to destruction. One could argue that many traditions have been disrupted to one degree or another, but not totally destroyed.
CuAnnan CricketBrain I've sometimes wondered whether it's right for me to think of myself as pagan (a Hellenic Latin word) when heathen (a Germanic word) means much the same thing but has closer ties to the tradition that feels right to me. I've never understood the difference between pagan and heathen, apart from the etymological difference. Side note: What age are you?
Maybe, to me, there's a spiritual difference, something I'm still working on.
I'm age 35, why? |
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Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:41 pm
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CuAnnan I've never understood the difference between pagan and heathen, apart from the etymological difference.
patch99329 I'mnot sure where you are going with this, can you explain?
Shekhinah is the presence of YHVH amongst his Chosen People. I like to argue that the proper position of someone familiar with Jewish Mysticism and scripture is that Judaism is Panentheistic- and thus there is an omni-presence transcendental theology to be found there.
CricketBrain Yes, where I was going is that Native American traditions have continued with little or no reconstruction, whereas that is not the case as far as I know with European traditions. I failed to elaborate again.
Are members of the Long House traditions and other indigenous tribal faiths neo-pagans?
CricketBrain Maybe, to me, there's a spiritual difference, something I'm still working on.
That said folks- I like Nuri's notation on Pagan within the framework of the modern pagan movement- listing it as a self identifier. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:09 am
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TeaDidikai patience1984 Someone who I trust guessed that I may be a "Eclectic Neo-Pagan." Can anyone please define that for me and point me in the direction of a credible source of information about it. Is it a specific religion or an overall term that includes other mini groups with different beliefs? Quote: Tea Eclectic: Selecting what appears to be best in various doctrines, methods, or styles Neo-Pagan: A person who practices a contemporary form of paganism. (Definitions selected from Merriam Webster) Helpful, concise, clear, and cited..can’t beat that. Thanks Quote: My entire family is Jewish and most of them (and there are a lot of them) are very observant. My mother is very open minded but she personally believes very strongly in Judaism and she sent me to Jewish private school my entire life before high school. Maybe partially because it was thrown down my throat I rebelled from it, although my sister seemed to have the opposite effect, ...but mainly it just didn't make sense to me. The old testament didn't seem to make any sense to me. It was filled with flaws and hypocrisies and stories that made me question if I thought the monotheistic god's motives were even just. I started to think that it was unlikely that the world was created at all as if some higher power put everything together like playdoe. I figured that people back in history, and still today even, could not answer how we got here and invented the idea of God to make themselves feel better. I told myself that nobody who died had ever come back so there was no proof that any of us could be aware of an afterlife and that it was just so people would not be depressed that when you die it is all over. So I figured that it was all science and the big bang theory and that even though we don;t have all the answers, the answers still exist and eventually we may scientifically figure them out. I'm going to pause here and point out that many Jewish traditions accept the creation mythos as a metaphor for our scientific understanding of how the world was created. Quote: Tea I'll also point out that YHVH states he is the author of good and evil. (Yisheyah 45:7) I don’t believe in that god. I am pretty sure I don’t believe in a god separated from nature…especially not a creator. Quote: I liked certain aspects of the religion (if that is rly the religion I learned about) such as: the Wiccan rede (the idea that I had freedom as long as I never caused harm), Quote: Tea That isn't what the Rede really says. The Rede says that you do not need to give matters that do not cause harm a second thought. Actions that do cause harm aren't prohibited, they just aren't issued blanket permission. Well I do my very est never to hurt anyone or anything in any way. It is extremely important to me. I do appreciate the clarification about the rede. I’m not sure if my non violent views will fit into whatever path I may be meant to belong to or if it will be a personal way of living. (Eclectic I suppose you would say. I know that when I learned that some Native American tribes believed in complete non violence I was very drawn to that...I think it may be part of Buddhism as well and probably other religions too? I am here to learn so I apologize for my current ignorance…although it is hard not to seem ignorant in comparison to you.) Quote: taking responsibility for my own positive or negative actions (not just giving the credit to the monotheistic god or the devil) Both Judaism and Christendom don't assume that YHVH or "The Devil" are responsibility for your good deeds or bad ones. It's a choice that we make. (Yisheyah 7:15) I guess that must have been Buckland misleading me again..it is hard because it was so long ago for me to remember what I thought was true from what source. Something I intend to continue correcting now that I have help here. I don’t believe that hell, the devil, or the monotheistic god which you speak exists or ever has. Quote: and the three fold rule (which even though I could not be certain exists, seemed to make sense. Although I could certainly argue that trying to make sense of exactly how you get paid back for your actions is your assumption and can;t be proven in stone.) Quote: Tea Not to mention for someone who favors natural sciences to enjoy the concept of a perpetual energy machine seems odd. I’m an odd person, it comes with the territory of thinking so much..I geuss that makes me hard to fit into a specific group. There are just thigns about nature that seem like much more then we understand…and it is fascinating and amazing but I want to do the best job I can to at least decide that it seems like something like that exists. There are other mysteries too. I believe I may have done some astral projection 2 times in my life when I was awake and neither was planned. I don’t know much about it, but it seems like just another wonderful and mysterious part of nature. I started to read about scientific pantheism but now I’m starting to feel more eclectic again…although I don’t think the website was very good, maybe I am just being picky...but before I have even researched the citations or anything the author seems to be speaking in a “my goals is to convert you” kind of way : http://www.pantheism.net/paul/index.htmQuote: I stopped liking the rituals and spells and holidays (even though I did like the idea of worshiping nature and appreciating when natural occurrences such as eclipses occur. Because I questioned why the rituals had to be that way…why does it have to involve the same symbols as others use, it just didn’t seem personal enough to me. I don’t like others telling me what days are more imp then others and how to celebrate it…I think it is between me and the rest of nature. Quote: so it seems that such a perfect system were everything is constantly re-being put into perfect balance is something amazing and something that should be worshiped. Quote: Tea I'm curious about your concept of balance and what it has to say about entropy. umm, matter can never be created or destroyed..things can beak down but they will reassemble in a balanced way. Quote: Tea As a final note- you were born to a Chosen People. Rejection of this carries some important things for you to consider- such as the different Generational Curses as spoken of in Shemot 34:6-7 and Devarim 11:26-28. I think I blocked out most of what I learned, not to mention a good portion of my childhood in general. I suppose it could not hurt to find out more about these curses but it seems as though they are just others beliefs and there is no reason for me to accept them as valid. But if you know where I could get more info I’d appreciate it. I’m sure I can also ask my mom about it, she seems to get a lot out of studying Judaism in more and more depth on any free time she has. Quote: Tea That being said- how familiar are you with the concept of Shekhinah? Again I must have blocked it out, my mother would not be happy with the tuition money she scraped together that went to waste. But judging by your later post explaining it somewhat more…considering I do not believe in a creator god or the bible I’m not sure why it is important for me to accept it just because those people who are actual jews do. |
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Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:23 am
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patience1984 Helpful, concise, clear, and cited..can’t beat that. Thanks
Quote: I don’t believe in that god. I am pretty sure I don’t believe in a god separated from nature…especially not a creator.
Quote: Well I do my very est never to hurt anyone or anything in any way. It is extremely important to me. I do appreciate the clarification about the rede. I’m not sure if my non violent views will fit into whatever path I may be meant to belong to or if it will be a personal way of living. (Eclectic I suppose you would say.
Quote: I know that when I learned that some Native American tribes believed in complete non violence I was very drawn to that...
Quote: I think it may be part of Buddhism as well and probably other religions too?
Quote: I am here to learn so I apologize for my current ignorance…
Quote: I don’t believe that hell, the devil, or the monotheistic god which you speak exists or ever has.
And one other important question- given that objective reality is not effected by your personal opinions of it, what do you plan to do should the generational curses take hold?
Quote: I’m an odd person, it comes with the territory of thinking so much..
Quote: http://www.pantheism.net/paul/index.htm
In this case- I am speaking of the ideology that equates the divine with the universe- as per Merriam Webster.
Quote: Because I questioned why the rituals had to be that way…
Quote: why does it have to involve the same symbols as others use, it just didn’t seem personal enough to me. I don’t like others telling me what days are more imp then others and how to celebrate it…I think it is between me and the rest of nature.
That said- what is your understanding of the mystical and pragmatic applications of symbols within spiritual contexts?
Quote: umm, matter can never be created or destroyed..things can beak down but they will reassemble in a balanced way.
Wing? Someone? Isakane is half asleep while I am poking him to make sure my understanding is correct. Can someone confirm this?
Quote: I think I blocked out most of what I learned, not to mention a good portion of my childhood in general. I suppose it could not hurt to find out more about these curses but it seems as though they are just others beliefs and there is no reason for me to accept them as valid.
Quote: But if you know where I could get more info I’d appreciate it. I’m sure I can also ask my mom about it, she seems to get a lot out of studying Judaism in more and more depth on any free time she has.
Quote: Again I must have blocked it out, my mother would not be happy with the tuition money she scraped together that went to waste. But judging by your later post explaining it somewhat more…considering I do not believe in a creator god or the bible I’m not sure why it is important for me to accept it just because those people who are actual jews do. |
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