Cultures and their Gods

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

And if the god allows the person to worship in a way different from the ancient form or cultural norm?

More power to them. That doesn't excuse people who rape others closed traditions though.

It's a fact that many modern traditions cannot recreate the traditions of old. To ask such isn't the issue.

The issue is that some gods hate having outsiders approch them, for past transgressions, due to oaths with specific peoples etc. In those cases, forcing oneself on a tradition and removing the deity from the prohibitions it has placed on it's worship is to Profane the deity something a respectful person wouldn't do.

Take for example how disrespectful it would be to say YHVH's TRUE name outside of the Temple on the day of penance. He had prohibitons against it. Let's say for a moment you did know how to pronounce it correctly- where you to do something he told you not to do- because of what? a sense of entitlement? That would be very rude to say the least.  

[Tagra Nar]

TeaDidikai

More power to them. That doesn't excuse people who rape others closed traditions though.

It's a fact that many modern traditions cannot recreate the traditions of old. To ask such isn't the issue.

The issue is that some gods hate having outsiders approch them, for past transgressions, due to oaths with specific peoples etc. In those cases, forcing oneself on a tradition and removing the deity from the prohibitions it has placed on it's worship is to Profane the deity something a respectful person wouldn't do.

Take for example how disrespectful it would be to say YHVH's TRUE name outside of the Temple on the day of penance. He had prohibitons against it. Let's say for a moment you did know how to pronounce it correctly- where you to do something he told you not to do- because of what? a sense of entitlement? That would be very rude to say the least.

And, again, if the god allows it? I'm not talking about people taking a god and twisting it to their heart's content. I'm talking about a god saying otherwise. Or are the gods unchangeable?  

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

And, again, if the god allows it?

Would depend on the god in question. Some of the gods themselves are Oathed.

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I'm not talking about people taking a god and twisting it to their heart's content.

I very much am.

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I'm talking about a god saying otherwise.

Saying to such to whom?

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Or are the gods unchangeable?

If a god swears by it's own distruction, I would hope for that god and it's people that it wouldn't throw itself into distruction because someone who cannot possibly understand it's sacrifices to it's people wants to have it as a neo-Pagan "Patron" etc.  

[Tagra Nar]

TeaDidikai

I very much am.

That's nice and all, but it's irrelevant to my question.

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Saying to such to whom?

The follower, of course.

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If a god swears by it's own distruction, I would hope for that god and it's people that it wouldn't throw itself into distruction because someone who cannot possibly understand it's sacrifices to it's people wants to have it as a neo-Pagan "Patron" etc.

I realize that you may be trying to set up my position as one where anyone can take any god and it'll be all lovely. That isn't my position. Please stop bringing it up and implying that it is.

If a follower worships a god, and they are told by that god that the manner in which they are doing so is alright, even if it is different from the cultural norms or ancient form, then I can see no argument against it. I don't expect you, or many others, to accept that, nor would I ever expect that follower to convince others. My advice, to them, would be to keep it to themselves.

My question is, simply, if the god him/her/itself tells the follower that they are perfectly fine with it, what argument have you against that (were you to know that that was the case, of course, as any such experience would be personal and subjective and difficult to prove to anyone else)?  

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

I realize that you may be trying to set up my position as one where anyone can take any god and it'll be all lovely. That isn't my position. Please stop bringing it up and implying that it is.

That is what you're suggesting by repeating that Deity X tells Neo-Pagan Y that even though they are bound to People Z through Oath, Blood etc, Deity X is breaking that by approaching Neo-Pagan Y.

Unless you are excluding Deities of closed cultures and traditions, which you should state and - in which case I addressed this in my first response to you.

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I don't expect you, or many others, to accept that, nor would I ever expect that follower to convince others.

Mighty gracious of you considering we have been talking about two different things and I have already conceded this point.

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My question is, simply, if the god him/her/itself tells the follower that they are perfectly fine with it, what argument have you against that (were you to know that that was the case, of course, as any such experience would be personal and subjective and difficult to prove to anyone else)?

The most reasonable suggestion (and one I have seen practiced many times in the Neo-Pagan scene) is that it isn't a deity they are dealing with, but a Thoughtform in the shape of a Deity.

The most entertaining one I recall was a person who thought that their thoughtform would protect them from the real god who was called into "circle" to curse the person for misrepresenting them.

Very effective as I recall.  

[Tagra Nar]

TeaDidikai

That is what you're suggesting by repeating that Deity X tells Neo-Pagan Y that even though they are bound to People Z through Oath, Blood etc, Deity X is breaking that by approaching Neo-Pagan Y.

Unless you are excluding Deities of closed cultures and traditions, which you should state and - in which case I addressed this in my first response to you.

I mention no specific god for a reason. Regardless of closed cultures or whatnot, if a god comes calling, and tells you "Hey, that's cool" I see no reason to worry. *shrugs*

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The most reasonable suggestion (and one I have seen practiced many times in the Neo-Pagan scene) is that it isn't a deity they are dealing with, but a Thoughtform in the shape of a Deity.

And if it is the deity? What then?  

[TeaDidikai]

Tagra Nar

I mention no specific god for a reason.

Which is a flaw in the argument. It's too generic.

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Regardless of closed cultures or whatnot, if a god comes calling, and tells you "Hey, that's cool" I see no reason to worry. *shrugs*

And I do if said god is breaking oath with it's people in a way that destroys the culture, kills the people and the god.

GodX, from the time of it's people's inception says "I swear to you on my continued existance and on yours, that I will preserve you and your generations and traditions from those outside of it, or forfit my life and the only protection you have."

And then they see a Neo-Pagan and go "Ohhh! Shiny! Hmmm... even though I could have paid the fates to bring that soul amongst my people, I will instead, break my word and tell them to worship me- on damn. I'm dead."

Gee- can't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

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And if it is the deity? What then?

Haven't seen a Deity of a closed culture break it's oath yet.

I guess in the case mentioned above, rocks fall, everyone dies. mrgreen  

[TeaDidikai]

Interesting thought- I wonder if a Land Deity of Pompeii had ever made such an oath.  

[TeaDidikai]

We’re talking about a few different groups of gods here.

Group 1: Deities from Open Cultures and Traditions
Group 2: Deities from Closed Cultures and Traditions
Group 3: Deities form traditions that do not state if they are Open or Closed.

I’d argue that Group 3 belongs along side Group 1, because the point of a Closed Tradition is that the Tradition or Culture states it is closed to Outsiders (unless one is adopted in –like the Celts, or goes through a conversion process- like the Jewish Faith).

If there is a Closed Culture, why is it closed?

The most common reason is Purity Laws.
Some foods, practices etc are considered impure. These impure behaviors or situations or items are a bane to the people and/or an affront to the god(s) in question. A person who does not convert or join the culture and gives up these forms of impurity cannot participate in the culture or practice.

Let’s pick on YHVH for a moment. YHVH issued 613 commands to his people. These included foods that they were not to eat. Within the age of the Temples, Sin Offerings had to be burned to remove the impurity from the person so that YHVH wouldn’t smite/drown/burn etc, the People- and the result was that when we read the OT, we see a cycle: People follow the 613 Laws and issue Sin Offerings and they have prosperity. People break them and they suffer (slavery, wandering, etc). We are currently living in a time when people who say they belong to this god are rejecting his standards.

One can argue a parallel in the experiences of the Jewish people form the OT and the current state of the Jewish People, further, the assertion that the 613 Laws are passé means no Sin Offering is being made for them- thus there is not even that protection.

Further- what makes these codes important is that it is a nationally revealed theology. While the Jewish Faith is the best documented case of this, there are others as well. The deity gathers all the people together and lays out in plain language “This is what is expected of you, this is who I am and what you are going to do about it- and if anything changes, I will gather you all together and let you know.”

Another common reason is “Metagenetics”. The god is bound to a people, through blood, oath or another condition and is restricted to work with those people and them alone. If you are excluded from the people, then you cannot be welcomed by the god. In cases like these, the gods are unchangeable. It is their nature to do work with this group and them alone.

Really- the bottom line is that sometimes No means no.
People who don’t get that are considered delusional- it doesn’t matter if the no is from a deity or a person.

I use the term Culture Rape because it creates a similar emotional sensation- a violation at the core of the person who watches as what is Sacred is made profane.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

TeaDidikai

Interesting thought- I wonder if a Land Deity of Pompeii had ever made such an oath.

That's a very interesting thought.


The "but what if the god says it's okay" line of questioning reminds me of a thought process endemic to the Western world view (not assuming it is or is not your cultural background, just drawing a connection)--"let me talk to your superior." If the person you're talking to doesn't agree with you or is not accommodating enough, they clearly have no idea what they're doing or they don't realize who you are, and you will go up the line until you find someone who does.

"You are violating a closed tradition."
"But the god(s) said it was okay!"
"If you are wrong, you are either deluded, lying, or both, and you are still violating a closed tradition. If you are right, then the tradition and its god(s) are dead--maybe it was your fault--at any rate, you have nothing left to follow."

There doesn't really seem to be a third option--and neither of those two should be attractive.  

[TeaDidikai]

TheDisreputableDog

TeaDidikai

Interesting thought- I wonder if a Land Deity of Pompeii had ever made such an oath.

That's a very interesting thought.


The "but what if the god says it's okay" line of questioning reminds me of a thought process endemic to the Western world view (not assuming it is or is not your cultural background, just drawing a connection)--"let me talk to your superior." If the person you're talking to doesn't agree with you or is not accommodating enough, they clearly have no idea what they're doing or they don't realize who you are, and you will go up the line until you find someone who does.

"You are violating a closed tradition."
"But the god(s) said it was okay!"
"If you are wrong, you are either deluded, lying, or both, and you are still violating a closed tradition. If you are right, then the tradition and its god(s) are dead--maybe it was your fault--at any rate, you have nothing left to follow."

There doesn't really seem to be a third option--and neither of those two should be attractive.

There's an aspect of arrogance to it as well.

So a god hates a certain quality enough to establish a purity law about it for his chosen people to follow- but when you violate it, it's okay.

I kind of find it funny.