8 words the wiccan rede fulfil

[CuAnnan]

This, or something very much to its effect, was posted on M&R. It thought it would belong well here too as it bears mentioning.

"8 words the wiccan rede fulfil, an' it harm none do what ye will"

An' it harm none do what ye will.
If it doesn't harm anybody, do what it is that you set your Will to.
We'll break this down again.

An' it harm none. Old english way of saying "If it doesn't harm someone".

Do what ye will. This does not mean "do as you want" or "do what ever you like." It means Set your will to it and DO IT. Put everything you have behind it and follow through. No going back, no changing your mind, commit it to be done and be it done. This means you accept the consequences also.

An it harm none do what ye will.

If it doesn't harm someone then do it.

This does not mean if it harms someone you are forbidden, by the Rede, from doing it.

Don't believe me?

Let's break it down into logic then.

Killing people harms them.

If killing people harms someone then the Wiccan rede does not say do it.

An killing people harms none do what you will (being killing people).

Nope. That is not a prohibition against harming.

Still don't believe me?

Let's try it out in computer code. You can, if you want, open up notepad, paste the following code in, save it as "c:whatTheRedeSays.html" and set the file type to "all files" (if you're in windows). Then open up a new tab or window and type in c:whatTheRedeSays.html. You'll see the rede says nothing about committing harm.

type="text/javascript">
whatDoesTheRedeSay = function(anItHarmNone)
{
var whatTheRedeSays = "nothing";
if(anItHarmNone)
{
whatTheRedeSays = "do what ye will";
}
return whatTheRedeSays
}

seeWhatTheRedeSays = function()
{
var things = {"Clean my room":true, "Kill the Dalai Llama":false, "Start a bush fire":false}

for(var i in things)
{
document.body.innerHTML += (i+": "+whatDoesTheRedeSay(things[i])+"
")
}
}

What it actually returns is
Clean my room: do what ye will
Kill the Dalai Llama: nothing
Start a bush fire: nothing

"IF (a) THEN (b)" does NOT mean "IF NOT (a) THEN NOT (b)".

Thank you, rant over.  

[ShadowSharrow]

So a snipershoot to the head is ok and blanket bombing a city block is not ?  

[scorplett]

The Redes do not have a defined meaning within the doctarine of Wicca.
They are advisories that are best understood on an individual basis.  

[PurpleDragonsGems]

*brain melts* I'm sooo lost gonk  

[With Motion]

Dragon_Witch_Woman

*brain melts* I'm sooo lost gonk

I'll try to simplify it.
"An it harm none, do what ye will"
This means "If it doesn't cause harm, then it's okay to do". Makes sense.

However, some people claim that this means "If it DOES cause harm, then it's absolutely forbidden!" which is entirely false. Cuchullain is showing why through logic, it's really a simple concept. How about this example:

"If it is a square, then it is a rectangle." This is true.
"If it's not a square, then it's not a rectangle." This is false. Rectangles aren't always squares.

So, basically, it means that if you want to do something that causes harm, then you had better take responsibility for your actions. It's up to the individual's decision. It does not say that causing harm is entirely forbidden, or else you're a bad wiccan.  

[CuAnnan]

scorplett

The Redes do not have a defined meaning within the doctarine of Wicca.
They are advisories that are best understood on an individual basis.

I was merely dispelling the English misruling that "an it harm none do what ye will" states "if it harms, you can not do it".
Whether or not an individual interprets it that way is at their discretion. It is, however, not contained within the wording.  

[PurpleDragonsGems]

[Eshmasesh]

Dragon_Witch_Woman

*brain melts* I'm sooo lost gonk

I'll try to simplify it.
"An it harm none, do what ye will"
This means "If it doesn't cause harm, then it's okay to do". Makes sense.

However, some people claim that this means "If it DOES cause harm, then it's absolutely forbidden!" which is entirely false. Cuchullain is showing why through logic, it's really a simple concept. How about this example:

"If it is a square, then it is a rectangle." This is true.
"If it's not a square, then it's not a rectangle." This is false. Rectangles aren't always squares.

So, basically, it means that if you want to do something that causes harm, then you had better take responsibility for your actions. It's up to the individual's decision. It does not say that causing harm is entirely forbidden, or else you're a bad wiccan.

OOOOH ok, thank you now it makes sence. Alot of sence xd  

[scorplett]

[Eshmasesh]

Dragon_Witch_Woman

*brain melts* I'm sooo lost gonk

I'll try to simplify it.
"An it harm none, do what ye will"
This means "If it doesn't cause harm, then it's okay to do". Makes sense.

However, some people claim that this means "If it DOES cause harm, then it's absolutely forbidden!" which is entirely false. Cuchullain is showing why through logic, it's really a simple concept. How about this example:

"If it is a square, then it is a rectangle." This is true.
"If it's not a square, then it's not a rectangle." This is false. Rectangles aren't always squares.

So, basically, it means that if you want to do something that causes harm, then you had better take responsibility for your actions. It's up to the individual's decision. It does not say that causing harm is entirely forbidden, or else you're a bad wiccan.

Look its really very simple...
It says what it says but it means what you or anyone think it means.
Please do not tell someone what another person means to say as Cúchullain and any other poster are perfectly capable of answering for themselves, also please do not instruct people what the read means outside of linguistic construct and please for the love of the Gods dont tell people that the redes mean one thing because they do not.
You can of course tell someone what YOU believe it to mean, to and for you, but outside of this please quite the dogmatic bull s**t!  

[TheDisreputableDog]

scorplett

Look its really very simple...
It says what it says but it means what you or anyone think it means.
Please do not tell someone what another person means to say as Cúchullain and any other poster are perfectly capable of answering for themselves, also please do not instruct people what the read means outside of linguistic construct and please for the love of the Gods dont tell people that the redes mean one thing because they do not.
You can of course tell someone what YOU believe it to mean, to and for you, but outside of this please quite the dogmatic bull s**t!

Um, what? confused

Wicca has dogma. That's what makes it Wicca. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway, I was having a little trouble with this until I went "Duh."

Most people seem to interpret the statement as "If and only if it harm none, do what ye will," which would be the logical equivalent of "if not (a) then not (b)," whereas "If it harm none, do what ye will" is not. Would there be anything to support "an" as meaning one or the other ("if and only if" vs "if")?  

[scorplett]

TheDisreputableDog

scorplett

Look its really very simple...
It says what it says but it means what you or anyone think it means.
Please do not tell someone what another person means to say as Cúchullain and any other poster are perfectly capable of answering for themselves, also please do not instruct people what the read means outside of linguistic construct and please for the love of the Gods dont tell people that the redes mean one thing because they do not.
You can of course tell someone what YOU believe it to mean, to and for you, but outside of this please quite the dogmatic bull s**t!

Um, what? confused

Wicca has dogma. That's what makes it Wicca. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway, I was having a little trouble with this until I went "Duh."

Most people seem to interpret the statement as "If and only if it harm none, do what ye will," which would be the logical equivalent of "if not (a) then not (b)," whereas "If it harm none, do what ye will" is not. Would there be anything to support "an" as meaning one or the other ("if and only if" vs "if")?

[url=http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/books/dictionaries/21_century_std.html]Chambers Referance Online[/url]

dogma noun (dogmas or dogmata)
1 a a belief or principle laid down by an authority as unquestionably true;
b such beliefs or principles in general.
2 colloq an opinion arrogantly stated.
ETYMOLOGY: 16c: Greek, meaning 'opinion'.

Well I was actually using 'dogmatic bullshit' in the context of the second quoted dictionary meaning an arrogantly stated opinion.

There are times I wish that Wiccan Dogma could be more stable and verifiable as it would take a lot of misconception and misinformation out of the mix, so yes, dogma can be a very good thing.

However Wiccan dogma is a very interesting topic and the Rede amongst other teachings are central to those principles.
There needs to be a separation of mainstream wicca and lineaged Wicca here.

Lineaged Wicca does contain dogmatic principles that are indeed taught to initiates. However it must be remembered that these authoritied teachings are strictly oath-bound, therefore anything in the public domain is not dogmatic as it is not unquestionably true. Also, if all covens are autonomous and a law unto themselves then no one can tell if any given principle is in fact unquestionably true.
Mainstream wicca from my viewpoint seems to strangely have a greater propensity for dogma. The two main offenders being the redes and the law of three. Mainstream wicca is eclectically inclined and therefore has more ability to reject dogmas yet doesn’t seem to. This I find to be an interesting little paradox.