Being an Elder Sucks

[Doctrix]

Pelta

TeaDidikai

Pelta

I was assuming only Wiccans would have to support their clergy (ie. each other or whoever's teaching them). I don't give money to the Catholic church, why would I give money to the Wiccans? They can squabble about money amongst themselves.

However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population, thus the generic neo-pagan population would be the ones supporting them.

What? You mean they appointed themselves the pagan population's priests without telling us? Bloody self-righteous Wiccans.* I didn't know you could be a priest to people who were completely oblivous of your existance... confused I hope that doesn't include me. Just because I'll dance naked on the solstices doesn't mean I owe anybody my allegiance.*No offense intended.

Woah, woah, woah! I hope not! I hope that this is a joke that is far too over my head for a Sunday afternoon. I don't owe the general neo-Pagan population jack! I serve only my Gods. I pity the fool Pagan who considers me their clergy! Also, Wiccans do not support clergy (even/especially Elders). We all have to get real jobs.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population,

Wrong, they are priest/ess to thier Gods and onto each other.

TeaDidikai

thus the generic neo-pagan population would be the ones supporting them.

The neo-pagan population owe nothing those those that are Wiccan in a religious context and also Wiccan's owe nothing to the neo-pagan population in a clergy contest.

Pelta

What? You mean they appointed themselves the pagan population's priests without telling us? Bloody self-righteous Wiccans.*

No, that is not the case at all, some of the neo-pagan population have tired to assert that the Wiccan clergy owes them and the community at large all sorts of rights and services, those that are Wicca are only bound to serive thier Gods and to supprot thier brothers and sisters of the Art.

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What?

[quote="Pelta"]I didn't know you could be a priest to people who were completely oblivous of your existance... confused [/quote=]

There are times in serivce to the Gods and just being a good decent human person you do help out other people, be it a chance converstation or how
every your and thier paths intersect but again it is done out of service to the Gods and not to the people and for the most part those people don't need to know that the person they are dealing with is even a witch never mind a Wiccan initaite.

We are all part of each other's learning experieces.  

[Pelta]

Thaedydal

Pelta

However, Wiccans are clergy to the generic neo-pagan population,

Wrong, they are priest/ess to thier Gods and onto each other.

Ok, but I didn't say that. In fact, the first two quotes in your post are misattributed. I was rather shocked to discover Wiccans are somehow clergy to laypeople. You'd have to take that up with TeaDidikai.

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The neo-pagan population owe nothing those those that are Wiccan in a religious context and also Wiccan's owe nothing to the neo-pagan population in a clergy contest.

That's what I originally thought. They are self-enclosed systems that often require very little religious interaction. Why a Wiccan would be considered clergy to any other faiths went completely over my head.

Do you have any quotes that could help clarify this, Tea?  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

I don't owe the general neo-Pagan population jack! I serve only my Gods. I pity the fool Pagan who considers me their clergy!

The founder of your religion disagreed with your position.

G. Gardner

The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones', and they also fulfilled the function of surgeons, doctors, midwives and psychiatrists. It was these people and their followers who came to be called 'Witches'. The church found their influence a dangerous rival to its own, and commenced a campaign of extermination against them, the barbarities of which are not pleasant to dwell upon. Its result was to drive the Wica underground where the Cult survived as a secret 'mystery-religion'. In a fragmentary form it survives to this day, and I have been initiated into a British witch coven.

So... unless the mythos wishes to claim that only initiated Wiccans were allowed to be treated by midwives and doctors....  

[ShadowSharrow]

Every Wiccan has thier own job thier own profession, midwifes and dr of that time would have been thier profession and thier priesthood was another part of thier lives as it is with those of the Wicca today.

Those that are Wiccan serve thier Gods and keep thier oaths no more is asked of them. Who is to say that some are not called in thier sevice to thier Gods to work with in the community but what ever they do thier or what ever public function they do that is thier own and not Wiccan.

There is a lot of that dualiity I have found, many different acts of balancing,
being a hidden child of the Godess and yet being around if a seeker comes seeking or pointing someone on thier way with out them even knowing why.  

[ShadowSharrow]

Sorry about that Pelta, thank you for pointing it out I have amended that post.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

[Kudzu]

I don't owe the general neo-Pagan population jack! I serve only my Gods. I pity the fool Pagan who considers me their clergy!

The founder of your religion disagreed with your position.

Possibly.

TeaDidikai

G. Gardner

The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones', and they also fulfilled the function of surgeons, doctors, midwives and psychiatrists. It was these people and their followers who came to be called 'Witches'. The church found their influence a dangerous rival to its own, and commenced a campaign of extermination against them, the barbarities of which are not pleasant to dwell upon. Its result was to drive the Wica underground where the Cult survived as a secret 'mystery-religion'. In a fragmentary form it survives to this day, and I have been initiated into a British witch coven.

So... unless the mythos wishes to claim that only initiated Wiccans were allowed to be treated by midwives and doctors....

Also possible, if one considers the Myth to be portraying a huge population of Wiccans. Or maybe Wiccans only serviced Wiccans and non-Wiccans serviced non-Wiccans. I sure don't know. My personal interpretation of the quoted text is that the myth speaks of a history which no longer exists. It is implied (no... stated?) in this text and the Laws that what is now a secret, mystery tradition was once a large and possibly even more public one (practiced in "alther greatest temples?").

G. Gardner

The Priests and Priestesses who directed these festivals were called the Wica, meaning 'The Wise Ones', and they also fulfilled the function of surgeons, doctors, midwives and psychiatrists.[...] The church found their influence a dangerous rival to its own, and commenced a campaign of extermination against them[...] Its result was to drive the Wica underground where the Cult survived as a secret 'mystery-religion'. In a fragmentary form it survives to this day, and I have been initiated into a British witch coven.

Since it's still a secretive mystery religion, it seems to me that the above text and current situation does necessarily advocate throwing away the current model and reinstating the old myth. It appears to me to be a historical reflection, not an imperative. However, I could be wrong. I certainly don't know what was in Gardner's head when he wrote that, and Gardner did take action to make Wicca more public than it was.  

[TeaDidikai]

Thaedydal

Every Wiccan has thier own job thier own profession, midwifes and dr of that time would have been thier profession and thier priesthood was another part of thier lives as it is with those of the Wicca today.

Please support that this is either historical fact or that Gardner wrote that this was true.

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Those that are Wiccan serve thier Gods and keep thier oaths no more is asked of them.

You're mistaken. If nothing else they hold social contracts with the community they belong to.

That aside- the fact of the matter is many lineaged Wiccans do hold open circles and minister to the neo-pagan community. Just because others do not follow the religion as it was laid down by it's founder does not mean that they are not asked to do more.

Funny- I personally find it ironic that the party line for so long was "If you don't follow the religion Gardner outlined, you should call yourself something other than Wiccan"... and that the most vocal of people on this matter are the first to suggest that following the religion outlined isn't needed to be Wiccan.

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Who is to say that some are not called in thier sevice to thier Gods to work with in the community but what ever they do thier or what ever public function they do that is thier own and not Wiccan.

Apparently the founder of the Theology was the one to say it.

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being a hidden child of the Godess and yet being around if a seeker comes seeking or pointing someone on thier way with out them even knowing why.

Ummmm.... when you say you are a Hidden Child of the Goddess, by saying it in a public forum... you're not hidden so much.

May I ask that you work with spell check. I’m dyslexic and the spelling errors are painful.

[Kudzu]

Also possible, if one considers the Myth to be portraying a huge population of Wiccans. Or maybe Wiccans only serviced Wiccans and non-Wiccans serviced non-Wiccans. I sure don't know. My personal interpretation of the quoted text is that the myth speaks of a history which no longer exists. It is implied (no... stated?) in this text and the Laws that what is now a secret, mystery tradition was once a large and possibly even more public one (practiced in "alther greatest temples?").

Except- the Old Laws aren't even followed. However, even initiated Wiccans (such as Janet Farrar) acknowledge that the above passage is an accurate representation of modern Wicca.

Also note that historically, there is more substance to Gardner's position (even if the Unified Witchcult theory is bunk) because of the historical evidence that shows pagan clergy were paid for their work within the community.

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Since it's still a secretive mystery religion,

Challenged.
Other initiated Wiccans disagree with your assertion, therefore to assert this as fact is an appeal to authority.

Quote:

It appears to me to be a historical reflection, not an imperative. However, I could be wrong. I certainly don't know what was in Gardner's head when he wrote that, and Gardner did take action to make Wicca more public than it was.

It would be really nice if you would put more effort into your position than an idle "I think, but I could be wrong...". I understand that you are oath bound, but that doesn't stop you from doing some leg work and countering with things not bound by oath. If all we wanted was an unsupported position, we could read Cunningham.  

[Astenwroth]

Kuroiban

TeaDidikai

Pelta

TeaDidikai

I wish me to cite Gardner's pieces on the subject?

No thanks... I believe you. I just find it ridiculous, and somewhat insulting. confused

Part of the point of being what I am is that I am my own clergy.

But even clergy have clergy. ~shrugs~

Hmm... I was going to make a sarcastic remark about who clergies the clergy's clergy, but something else popped up in my head.

Has anyone ever heard/seen/been made ware of a religious sect/group/what have ye where there is a semi-circular clergy so to speak?

Example: The Holy House of Pancakes (Not to be confused with iHop) devides it's clergy of (shall we say) 30 members into 3 groups of ten.

They're good at division you see.

In any event, the first group (in addition to it's other duties) tends to the spirtual needs of the second group. The second group tends to teh spirtual needs of the third, and the third tends to the first.

Just an idea I thought of.

Mormonism. The husband is clergy and looks to the religious well being of his family. The Bishop looks to the religious wellbeing of his Ward (Around 100 people more or less). The Stake President looks after usualy a county filled with multiple wards. The Area President looks after the stakes in his region. The Regional President looks after the areas. The Regional report to the Quorum of the Seventy and look after their sections of the world. The Seventy report to the 12. The 12 Reports to the Prophet who guides the entire Church. And through that chain the Prophet can move the entire church to action within hours. Everyone knows their place, everyone has their place. And everyone to their duties.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

Quote:

Those that are Wiccan serve thier Gods and keep thier oaths no more is asked of them.

You're mistaken. If nothing else they hold social contracts with the community they belong to.

If they chose to be part of a community then they do but as equal memebers of that community as people not as priest/ess of Wicca.

TeaDidikai

That aside- the fact of the matter is many lineaged Wiccans do hold open circles and minister to the neo-pagan community. Just because others do not follow the religion as it was laid down by it's founder does not mean that they are not asked to do more.

Many is not all nor it is a quorum and priest/ess and covens are autonomous. If they hold open circles they do so in a pagan fashion and as witches and not as Wiccan and those practices are not Wiccan.
Yes they are doing more of thier own choosing and not out of obligation to the wider neo pagan community.

TeaDidikai

Funny- I personally find it ironic that the party line for so long was "If you don't follow the religion Gardner outlined, you should call yourself something other than Wiccan"... and that the most vocal of people on this matter are the first to suggest that following the religion outlined isn't needed to be Wiccan.

People are people and there are always 3 sides to every arguement and point of view if not more and that would be why there are different Traditions and ways of working and still being Wicca, it's not the Borg.

TeaDidikai

dikai"]]
Apparently the founder of the Theology was the one to say it.

Oh so it is only true if written down, wow must remember that one.

Those that are Wiccan Preist/ess are also witches and witches meddle and
get invovled in ther comminity, poke thier noses in and do what is needed
be it a cup of tea or a harsh/soothing word or a kick in the arse and they were witches first and that does not change.

TeaDidikai

Ummmm.... when you say you are a Hidden Child of the Goddess, by saying it in a public forum... you're not hidden so much.

Really do you know me ?
Do you know what I look like ?
Can you point me out on the street ?
Can you get in touch with me if I walk away from this account tomorrow ?

TeaDidikai

May I ask that you work with spell check. I’m dyslexic and the spelling errors are painful.

Well at least you can see them, I am also dyslexic but I shall take your point on board and endeavour try a little harder.

TeaDidikai

Except- the Old Laws aren't even followed. However, even initiated Wiccans (such as Janet Farrar) acknowledge that the above passage is an accurate representation of modern Wicca.

Oh really ? That is certainly not I have found, despite the autonomy
care to clarify ?

TeaDidikai

because of the historical evidence that shows pagan clergy were paid for their work within the community.

I would say that they were paid for the skills which would fall under the heading of them being a witch rather then a priest/ess of Wicca.

Quote:

# And if any Brother truly wrought it, 'tis right they have their pay, an it be just. An this be not taking money for the art, but for good and honest work.

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# Payment

# Never accept money for the use of the art, for money ever smeareth the taker. 'Tis sorcerors and conjurers and the priests of the Christians who ever accept money for the use of their arts. And they sell pardons to let men ascape from their sins.
# Be not as these. If you accept no money, you will be free from temptation to use the art for evil causes.

TeaDidikai

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Since it's still a secretive mystery religion,

Challenged.
Other initiated Wiccans disagree with your assertion, therefore to assert this as fact is an appeal to authority.

It is still a mystery tradition and it still has secrets and there are still people who do keep thier priesthood a secret and do not reveal and name and wear abouts of others.

It is a mystery tradition it will remains so no matter how many books are writte or lore is recorded because it is a life's journey and one of spiritual awakeings. It is like the secret mysterious taste of an apple you can gether and site all the sources you want but you will never know what it is like to eat an apple until you eat one.  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

[Kudzu]

Also possible, if one considers the Myth to be portraying a huge population of Wiccans. Or maybe Wiccans only serviced Wiccans and non-Wiccans serviced non-Wiccans. I sure don't know. My personal interpretation of the quoted text is that the myth speaks of a history which no longer exists. It is implied (no... stated?) in this text and the Laws that what is now a secret, mystery tradition was once a large and possibly even more public one (practiced in "alther greatest temples?").

Except- the Old Laws aren't even followed. However, even initiated Wiccans (such as Janet Farrar) acknowledge that the above passage is an accurate representation of modern Wicca.

Also note that historically, there is more substance to Gardner's position (even if the Unified Witchcult theory is bunk) because of the histoical evidence that shows pagan clergy were paid for their work within the community.

Quote:

Since it's still a secretive mystery religion,

Challenged.
Other initiated Wiccans disagree with your assertion, therefore to assert this as fact is an appeal to authority.

Quote:

It appears to me to be a historical reflection, not an imperative. However, I could be wrong. I certainly don't know what was in Gardner's head when he wrote that, and Gardner did take action to make Wicca more public than it was.

It would be really nice if you would put more effort into your position than an idle "I think, but I could be wrong...". I understand that you are oath bound, but that doesn't stop you from doing some leg work and countering with things not bound by oath. If all we wanted was an unsupported position, we could read Cunningham.

Thanks for clarifying your position for me. I love learning a thing or two from your posts! I'm afraid that I choose not to put any further effort than "I think, but I could be wrong." I'm not a scholar on the matter and I am quite ignorant of many of the materials you cite. Check back with me many years from now when I'm an Elder! I am just a simple (newbie!) worshipper full of unsupported opinions that I have fun idly chatting about online. When it stops being fun, I'll stop doing it. smile I infer that I have nothing to add to this thread, so I'll bow out now. Thanks, as always, for a puzzling conversation.  

[TeaDidikai]

Thaedydal

If they chose to be part of a community then they do but as equal members[sic] of that community as people not as priest/ess of Wicca.

You say that as though one suddenly stops being clergy when they aren't acting as such. If you don't make hasty generalizations, you won't have that problem.

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Many is not all nor it is a quorum and priest/ess and covens are autonomous. If they hold open circles they do so in a pagan fashion and as witches and not as Wiccan and those practices are not Wiccan.

Please support this assertion.

If a Clergymember acts as Clergy to those who acknowledge their role as Clergy because of the fact they are in an initiated Clergy based Theology, they are acting as individuals granted the title of Clergy through their initiation, thus the practices are indeed Wiccan. They may not be Wiccan practices restricted to the Clergy, but that doesn't make them not Wiccan.

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Yes they are doing more of thier own choosing and not out of obligation to the wider neo pagan community.

And you define what a Wiccan is to do out of obligation to the wider neo-pagan community why? And why do you suggest that this is of their choosing and not of the will of the Wiccan Lord and Lady?

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People are people and there are always 3 sides to every argument[sic] and point of view if not more and that would be why there are different Traditions and ways of working and still being Wicca, it's not the Borg.

Of course. But such a suggestion is a double standard especially when one takes into account that lineaged Wiccans make allowances for my position.

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Oh so it is only true if written down, wow must remember that one.

Wo0t! Battle fact with sarcasm!

No, it is only valid in a debate if as a citation, it comes from an authority and can be confirmed.

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Those that are Wiccan Preist/ess are also witches and witches meddle and
get involved[sic] in ther[sic] community[sic], poke their[sic] noses in and do what is needed
be it a cup of tea or a harsh/soothing word or a kick in the arse and they were witches first and that does not change.

Unless of course one only becomes a Witch because one became a Wiccan.
And prey tell, since when to witches as a whole meddle? That's quite a brazen assertion.

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Really do you know me ?
Do you know what I look like ?
Can you point me out on the street ?
Can you get in touch with me if I walk away from this account tomorrow ?

With a bit of leg work, yeah actually. I could. Gotta love the age Information. With ISPN's being tracked and even public forms of online use being traced, it would be a pain in the arse, but it is completely possible.


After all, 78-87 of the 161 Laws pretty much condemn everything you have posted.

Quote:

Well at least you can see them, I am also dyslexic but I shall take your point on board and endeavour[sic] try a little harder.

Thank you.

Quote:

TeaDidikai

Except- the Old Laws aren't even followed. However, even initiated Wiccans (such as Janet Farrar) acknowledge that the above passage is an accurate representation of modern Wicca.

Oh really ? That is certainly not I have found, despite the autonomy
care to clarify ?

This is a bit of "Crap English". It could be asked if Gardner's quote is an accurate representation of Wicca or if the Old Laws aren't followed.

Either way, it is my pleasure. Let's start with the Old Laws-

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25. So be it ordained that no Coven shall know where the next Coven bide

A quick search on Witch.vox or Google can track more than one coven.

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29. And while there, none shall say whence they came nor give their true names.

I know Janet Farrar's name... and Gardner's... and more than a fair few others.

Silly lineaged initiated Wiccans using their real names at book signings and the like.

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55. For this reason, if any die, destroy their book an they have not been able to.

Interestingly enough, Gardner's Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical is owned by Ripley's.

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If any person not in the Circle, speak of the craft, say, "Speak not to me of such, it frightens me, 'tis evil luck to speak of it."

Not being in the Circle myself, I can't say you have said any such thing.

TeaDidikai

because of the historical evidence that shows pagan clergy were paid for their work within the community.

I would say that they were paid for the skills which would fall under the heading of them being a witch rather then a priest/ess of Wicca.

Quote:

# And if any Brother truly wrought it, 'tis right they have their pay, an it be just. An this be not taking money for the art, but for good and honest work.

etc...

As for if it is an accurate representation of the theology, the Old Laws themselves highlight the fact that lay-herbalism is a common practice amongst Wiccans. As a result, the herbal formulas that are given to friends and family by initiated Wiccans are acts of them working within their role of Clergy- as the knowledge many of these individuals draw on is taken from the training gained post-initiation.

Quote:

It is still a mystery tradition and it still has secrets and there are still people who do keep their[sic] priesthood a secret and do not reveal and name and wear abouts of others.

It is a mystery tradition it will remains so no matter how many books are writte or lore is recorded because it is a life's journey and one of spiritual awakeings. It is like the secret mysterious taste of an apple you can gether and site all the sources you want but you will never know what it is like to eat an apple until you eat one.

Very true. However, as there is nothing that can prove that one must be initiated in order to eat an apple...

That is to say- mystery religion? Yes, however- that does not unto itself restrict it's mysteries to those with lineaged initiation.  

[ShadowSharrow]

TeaDidikai

You say that as though one suddenly stops being clergy when they aren't acting as such. If you don't make hasty generalizations, you won't have that problem.

They stop being clergy in a Wiccan capactiy to people wants and needs who are not wiccan. A witch can have many strings to thier bow and play many tunes.

TeaDidikai

If a Clergymember acts as Clergy to those who acknowledge their role as Clergy because of the fact they are in an initiated Clergy based Theology, they are acting as individuals granted the title of Clergy through their initiation, thus the practices are indeed Wiccan. They may not be Wiccan practices restricted to the Clergy, but that doesn't make them not Wiccan.

I would say that if they are using thier skills and gift to futher a wican goal at the behest of those gods then it is other wise they are not acting as wiccan clergy but as neopagan clergy there is a difference, and one can be both but being ethir does not make you both.

TeaDidikai

And you define what a Wiccan is to do out of obligation to the wider neo-pagan community why? And why do you suggest that this is of their choosing and not of the will of the Wiccan Lord and Lady?

We all have free will and we can argue with our Gods we stand to them not kneel or we can if we choose turn our back on them so it is a matter of choosing.

TeaDidikai

Unless of course one only becomes a Witch because one became a Wiccan.
And prey tell, since when to witches as a whole meddle? That's quite a brazen assertion.

I have most certainly never heard of it happening that way around, unless you are refering tho those that were before and so became again.

Oh please they do and if there be not people they will be meddling ( which is not a negative term ) in the affairs of spirits, geni loci the departed or the land on which they walk.

Yes I can be brazen and bold and was complimented over the weekend about the size of my balls, I am warrior as well as a witch.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

Really do you know me ?
Do you know what I look like ?
Can you point me out on the street ?
Can you get in touch with me if I walk away from this account tomorrow ?

With a bit of leg work, yeah actually. I could. Gotta love the age Information. With ISPN's being tracked and even public forms of online use being traced, it would be a pain in the arse, but it is completely possible.

ORLY ?
This assumes that the network has a fixed ip address or a range that is trackible,
that you can get the court order needed in this country to make the internet service provider hand over the account details
and that I am the account holder.

TeaDidikai

Either way, it is my pleasure. Let's start with the Old Laws-

Quote:

25. So be it ordained that no Coven shall know where the next Coven bide

A quick search on Witch.vox or Google can track more than one coven.

And the address of the covenstead is given ? I think not.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

29. And while there, none shall say whence they came nor give their true names.

I know Janet Farrar's name... and Gardner's... and more than a fair few others.

Silly lineaged initiated Wiccans using their real names at book signings and the like.

There is a difference between real name and true name.
The ture name being that which also known as the magical name or the true name of the witch, which is confered at initation.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

55. For this reason, if any die, destroy their book an they have not been able to.

Interestingly enough, Gardner's Ye Bok of Ye Arts Magical is owned by Ripley's.

Quote:

If any person not in the Circle, speak of the craft, say, "Speak not to me of such, it frightens me, 'tis evil luck to speak of it."

Not being in the Circle myself, I can't say you have said any such thing.

Quote:

1. to utter words or articulate sounds with the ordinary voice; talk: He was too ill to speak.
2. to communicate vocally; mention: to speak to a person of various matters.
3. to converse: She spoke with him for an hour.
4. to deliver an address, discourse, etc.: to speak at a meeting.

You have not been with in ear shot of me or been anywhere to hear me draw breath, we have not spoken.

TeaDidikai

because of the historical evidence that shows pagan clergy were paid for their work within the community.

I would say that they were paid for the skills which would fall under the heading of them being a witch rather then a priest/ess of Wicca.

TeaDidikai

Quote:

# And if any Brother truly wrought it, 'tis right they have their pay, an it be just. An this be not taking money for the art, but for good and honest work.

etc...

As for if it is an accurate representation of the theology, the Old Laws themselves highlight the fact that lay-herbalism is a common practice amongst Wiccans. As a result, the herbal formulas that are given to friends and family by initiated Wiccans are acts of them working within their role of Clergy- as the knowledge many of these individuals draw on is taken from the training gained post-initiation.

For some they will have learned such things from coven mates or as part of training but for some they had such knowledge and skills before hand.
Just because you learn first aid and the Heimlich maneuver from a coven mate or your HP/s does not make it oath bound or a wiccan thing.

TeaDidikai

Very true. However, as there is nothing that can prove that one must be initiated in order to eat an apple...

That is to say- mystery religion? Yes, however- that does not unto itself restrict it's mysteries to those with lineaged initiation.

The mysteries are what we work through on our life's paths and if we do so with devotion then the Gods take note and they confer thier mysteries and trails on those they think maybe fitting. The Gods confer initiations, thier clergy will take into the fold those that are ment to be part of thier family and give them lineage and all that goes with that.  

[Deoridhe]

ShadowSharrow

There is a difference between real name and true name.
The ture name being that which also known as the magical name or the true name of the witch, which is confered at initation.

Heh. Via that logic, I was initiated as a witch at 15. Shame I'm not a witch.  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

With a bit of leg work, yeah actually. I could. Gotta love the age Information. With ISPN's being tracked and even public forms of online use being traced, it would be a pain in the arse, but it is completely possible.


After all, 78-87 of the 161 Laws pretty much condemn everything you have posted.

Nope.
It's not completely possible.
It's completely impossible.
The Irish Data Protection Act states that the IP address assigned to her is private information. Not even your government can request that information from her ISP without going through immense amounts of red tape and categorically proving she is guilty of breaking a law we recognise.
If she doesn't have a static ip address (which is the norm over here) then the information was destroyed by now. Not only are they not required to keep the information but, again under the DPA, they are required to destroy it.
That and it would take terrabytes of data storage to keep it.