Quote:
I can agree with that article to an extent. It serves it purposes as a condensed, layman's (nothing implied by that) examination of these subcultures. That said, I think it would take a book to cover indepth the distinction between the subcultures. Well, actually I'd like explore the music genres these subcultures came out of, then to distinguish between Emo and Scene. This is how I see things (right now, haha):
Punk: It was a genre born out of some rather shocking bands. Consider the Velvet Underground: its lyrics were about drugs. One can even look at the antics of Iggy Pop and the cross-dressing New York Dolls. Some considered Patty Smith punk with her attitude and poetry-infused music that talked about the most blatant things. The Ramones were a pop band who blatantly borrowed from 50's image and pop with a lyrical and slight image twist. Don't forget the MC5, who were all about being countercultural. It wasn't necessarily stupid, it was just simplistic, primal rock'n'roll that arose out of shock, theatrics, attitude, pop sensabilities, attitude, and rebellion. (Those are the main themes I've drawn at least.) Punk became what most people know about it in part due to the explosion in the UK, *and* the brutal and often militant punk (hence the name) genre Hardcore (aka. Bad Brains, Black Flag, and so on).
Goth: An article I posted earlier states a stance that Goth existed for centuries. I think in truth Goth as subculture-defined didn't exist until it spun off from Post-Punk music and perhaps what was elements of glam and the New Romantics movement. Post-Punk was an opening of avenues as far as sound went, stepping beyond the bloated corpse of Punk (which had initially been experimental in its own way by going primitive as opposed to many of the complex bands that were popular then). Then you take into account the theatrics of glam, and the fashion and romance of the New Romantics. Give it a darker, introverted tone, and early batcave goth was 'realized.' Oh, and don't forget the Post-Punk influence of music. Again, this is all something I'm still exploring, but yeah. (Added On: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and the Cure are all example of bands that "stepped over the bloated corpse of Punk." Siouxsie and the Banshees were themselves a Punk band to begin with, using dark lyrics and guitar riffs. It might also be noted she was also very influential with the way many gothic girls and guys wore their makeup (which guys wearing makeup was a splinter from glam and gender-bending rebellions). Then you had Joy Division whose overall mood and musical style affected many gothic bands to come. Top on all those the Cure, whose combination of Synths and introspective lyrics and mood influenced others. There were many others, but those are a) three of my biggest personal faves...so there's some bias, and b) there's a pretty extensive list. I guess I could also list the Damned, Specimen, Christian Death, 45 Grave, whose various styles (both theatrics and musically) has also influenced the overall genre and various subgenres.)
Emo: Emo was actually a musical genre born out of the Hardcore that came from Punk. It could also have been called "Post-Hardcore" with bands like Husker Du and Fugazi (and other bands created by Ian MacKaye). I believe it was best stated by an artist describing themselves - I don't remember if this was Husker Du's lead talking - as realizing they could step beyond the rough facade of Hardcore masculinity and explore other authentic emotions. It also was characterized by a musical style, notably jangly guitars and eratic explosions (I'm not sure on the second). Overall, the result was a dip into an entirely different genre that differed in attitude and musical style than Hardcore. As for the kids who claim to be emo (of whom I know very few serious emo kids actually, and question whether or not this was actually a subculture to begin with), some are Scene Kids, and some are just kids big into Indie music in genre. I think the line can be drawn between kids who were into emo with Ian and the rest, and kids of recent emo bands.
Now here's where I distinguish between emo and scene kids:
Scene Kids: Scene Kids are not necessarily emo. They are a phenomenon born out of recent trends and fashion. Their music ranges from Emo, to Electronica, to modern day Hardcore (which is like Hardcore Punk turned Metal, in my opinion). There's really no specific genre of music for them, as they are more of a fashion oriented subculture. They can be mistaken for Goths due to some of their theatrics. For example, Scene Kid guys sometimes wear makeup and girl pants. Some Scene Kids even wear a lot of black and other stuff that is associated with Goth. However, it's hard to say whether this is a blatant rip off of Goth though. They may be influenced by any combination of Modernism (aka. fashion-drive), Punk, Emo, and/or Metal.
[Side note: This was added on with some further reading of a site I'd included. Included among the "Other" links are some sites that are particularly interesting. In the History of Goth, the writer argues that Goth is not related to New Romantics (at least as far as musical stylings go), but rather a subculture that was briefly known as the Futurists. Both were rather flamboyant, but I believe the Futurists were the darker, angstier versions of the New Romantics. Follow the links below for further shtuff.]
[Side Note 2: I recently looked up Emo Kids and found an article about them. I believe it is faulty in associating Scene Kid fashion with Emo Kids when it talks about the two fashions. In my opinion, where it goes wrong is talking about the girl-tailored pants on guys and swept over hair styles. Those are Scene. However, the thick rimmed eyeglasses is true - I do remember these being popular when kids used to wear these. As with the previous side note, this link has been listed with the rest. It is the last link listed under Wikipedia.]
Further Readings:
Allmusic
Emo: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4525
Punk: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:204
Goth rock: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:387
Wikipedia
Punk Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock
Batcave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave_(London_nightclub)
New Romantics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Romantics
Gothic Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock
Goth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth
Emo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_(music)
Scene Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_kids
Emo Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_kids
Books
"Please Kill Me," by Legs McNeil
"Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984" by Simon Reynolds
"What is Goth?" by Voltaire
Other
History of Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
Futurists: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/future.htm
New Romantic: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/newro.htm
*Positive Punk: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/posipunk.htm
A Fast Intro to Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/fastgoth.htm
*I find this an interesting little article that was written prior to the formation of subculture as defined.
Punk: It was a genre born out of some rather shocking bands. Consider the Velvet Underground: its lyrics were about drugs. One can even look at the antics of Iggy Pop and the cross-dressing New York Dolls. Some considered Patty Smith punk with her attitude and poetry-infused music that talked about the most blatant things. The Ramones were a pop band who blatantly borrowed from 50's image and pop with a lyrical and slight image twist. Don't forget the MC5, who were all about being countercultural. It wasn't necessarily stupid, it was just simplistic, primal rock'n'roll that arose out of shock, theatrics, attitude, pop sensabilities, attitude, and rebellion. (Those are the main themes I've drawn at least.) Punk became what most people know about it in part due to the explosion in the UK, *and* the brutal and often militant punk (hence the name) genre Hardcore (aka. Bad Brains, Black Flag, and so on).
Goth: An article I posted earlier states a stance that Goth existed for centuries. I think in truth Goth as subculture-defined didn't exist until it spun off from Post-Punk music and perhaps what was elements of glam and the New Romantics movement. Post-Punk was an opening of avenues as far as sound went, stepping beyond the bloated corpse of Punk (which had initially been experimental in its own way by going primitive as opposed to many of the complex bands that were popular then). Then you take into account the theatrics of glam, and the fashion and romance of the New Romantics. Give it a darker, introverted tone, and early batcave goth was 'realized.' Oh, and don't forget the Post-Punk influence of music. Again, this is all something I'm still exploring, but yeah. (Added On: Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and the Cure are all example of bands that "stepped over the bloated corpse of Punk." Siouxsie and the Banshees were themselves a Punk band to begin with, using dark lyrics and guitar riffs. It might also be noted she was also very influential with the way many gothic girls and guys wore their makeup (which guys wearing makeup was a splinter from glam and gender-bending rebellions). Then you had Joy Division whose overall mood and musical style affected many gothic bands to come. Top on all those the Cure, whose combination of Synths and introspective lyrics and mood influenced others. There were many others, but those are a) three of my biggest personal faves...so there's some bias, and b) there's a pretty extensive list. I guess I could also list the Damned, Specimen, Christian Death, 45 Grave, whose various styles (both theatrics and musically) has also influenced the overall genre and various subgenres.)
Emo: Emo was actually a musical genre born out of the Hardcore that came from Punk. It could also have been called "Post-Hardcore" with bands like Husker Du and Fugazi (and other bands created by Ian MacKaye). I believe it was best stated by an artist describing themselves - I don't remember if this was Husker Du's lead talking - as realizing they could step beyond the rough facade of Hardcore masculinity and explore other authentic emotions. It also was characterized by a musical style, notably jangly guitars and eratic explosions (I'm not sure on the second). Overall, the result was a dip into an entirely different genre that differed in attitude and musical style than Hardcore. As for the kids who claim to be emo (of whom I know very few serious emo kids actually, and question whether or not this was actually a subculture to begin with), some are Scene Kids, and some are just kids big into Indie music in genre. I think the line can be drawn between kids who were into emo with Ian and the rest, and kids of recent emo bands.
Now here's where I distinguish between emo and scene kids:
Scene Kids: Scene Kids are not necessarily emo. They are a phenomenon born out of recent trends and fashion. Their music ranges from Emo, to Electronica, to modern day Hardcore (which is like Hardcore Punk turned Metal, in my opinion). There's really no specific genre of music for them, as they are more of a fashion oriented subculture. They can be mistaken for Goths due to some of their theatrics. For example, Scene Kid guys sometimes wear makeup and girl pants. Some Scene Kids even wear a lot of black and other stuff that is associated with Goth. However, it's hard to say whether this is a blatant rip off of Goth though. They may be influenced by any combination of Modernism (aka. fashion-drive), Punk, Emo, and/or Metal.
[Side note: This was added on with some further reading of a site I'd included. Included among the "Other" links are some sites that are particularly interesting. In the History of Goth, the writer argues that Goth is not related to New Romantics (at least as far as musical stylings go), but rather a subculture that was briefly known as the Futurists. Both were rather flamboyant, but I believe the Futurists were the darker, angstier versions of the New Romantics. Follow the links below for further shtuff.]
[Side Note 2: I recently looked up Emo Kids and found an article about them. I believe it is faulty in associating Scene Kid fashion with Emo Kids when it talks about the two fashions. In my opinion, where it goes wrong is talking about the girl-tailored pants on guys and swept over hair styles. Those are Scene. However, the thick rimmed eyeglasses is true - I do remember these being popular when kids used to wear these. As with the previous side note, this link has been listed with the rest. It is the last link listed under Wikipedia.]
Further Readings:
Allmusic
Emo: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4525
Punk: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:204
Goth rock: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:387
Wikipedia
Punk Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_rock
Batcave: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave_(London_nightclub)
New Romantics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Romantics
Gothic Rock: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock
Goth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth
Emo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_(music)
Scene Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_kids
Emo Kids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_kids
Books
"Please Kill Me," by Legs McNeil
"Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984" by Simon Reynolds
"What is Goth?" by Voltaire
Other
History of Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
Futurists: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/future.htm
New Romantic: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/newro.htm
*Positive Punk: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/posipunk.htm
A Fast Intro to Goth: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/fastgoth.htm
*I find this an interesting little article that was written prior to the formation of subculture as defined.