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 Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:35 pm
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I was just wondering what the denizens of the guild thought of the idea that "everything happens for a reason."
For example, is fate or destiny a part of your path, and if so, how much so? If not, what operates instead?
I've always noticed an odd relationship between "Providence" and "Fate" in literature (because I've only read this, not actually heard live people make this distinction), in that good things that you can't control are the result of Providence, while bad things that you can't control are the result of Fate. (I don't have an examples at the moment, I'll try to find some.)
Is there a distinction between fate and luck? Is everything just a coincidence? Are some events the influence of friendly, malign, or indifferent entities while others are random? Is "fate" a divine instrument, a fundamental law, or simply the outcome of twisting chains of choice made through free will that humans interpret as an overarching principle simply because our minds aren't sophisticated enough to keep track of it?
Just some random thoughts I tossed up and was curious about so I thought I'd throw it open to the guild. If the above isn't entirely clear I can elaborate.
For example, my girlfriend often gets upset when she is late or gets lost or takes the same wrong turn every time she goes that way. To calm down, she says, "It happened for a reason. By being late/etc I avoided an accident, or some other undesirable outcome." However, this is pretty much the only situation in which she explicitly mentions the concept.
So I was wondering how significant this family of concepts and its individual strains are in your path, and why, and whether it's true across the board or under what circumstances does it operate?
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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:18 pm
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Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:14 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:29 am
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:44 am
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Response after reading the thread title: No. However, human beings and the events that shape us, our environment, etc are predictable enough that it kind of seems like stuff happens for some *reason* but the *reason* is just that there Was a banana peel there, or that someone really did just accidently drop that ring on the ground you thought was going to lead you to Atlantis.
I used to think things happen for a higher reason, but not really anymore. I suppose they could, I'm open to the possibility.
More thoughtful response:
TheDisreputableDog For example, is fate or destiny a part of your path, and if so, how much so? If not, what operates instead?
I do not incorporate such an idea in my current beliefs. Stuff just happens.
TheDisreputableDog I've always noticed an odd relationship between "Providence" and "Fate" in literature (because I've only read this, not actually heard live people make this distinction), in that good things that you can't control are the result of Providence, while bad things that you can't control are the result of Fate. (I don't have an examples at the moment, I'll try to find some.)
Ok, I must be a dingbat, I have to look providence up....
I imagine that if I discovered that there were Deities watching over my existence that this concept of Providence might have some meaning for me, but as of yet I'm not feeling it.
Bad things happening because of fate is just a nice way of saying life sucks, too ******** bad, it was meant this way, now move on... IMHO wink
I am the master of my own fate. While people, places, things, events, blah blah blah can affect and influence my life, there is still choice and action. Just like if this last week I didn't see a doctor, I'd probably be at the bottom of the barrel again.
TheDisreputableDog Is there a distinction between fate and luck?
Not really, luck is just luck. Some people have it, some don't, some get it sometimes.
TheDisreputableDog Is everything just a coincidence?
Some things are. Some are not.
TheDisreputableDog Are some events the influence of friendly, malign, or indifferent entities while others are random?
Yes. But that doens't mean fate is involved.
TheDisreputableDog Is "fate" a divine instrument,
Doubtful, and if so, I feel that the divine is just as affected by "fate."
No.
TheDisreputableDog or simply the outcome of twisting chains of choice made through free will that humans interpret as an overarching principle simply because our minds aren't sophisticated enough to keep track of it?
Bingo!
TheDisreputableDog For example, my girlfriend often gets upset when she is late or gets lost or takes the same wrong turn every time she goes that way. To calm down, she says, "It happened for a reason. By being late/etc I avoided an accident, or some other undesirable outcome." However, this is pretty much the only situation in which she explicitly mentions the concept.
That sounds kind of like an excuse for being late.. or something. To me at least.
TheDisreputableDog So I was wondering how significant this family of concepts and its individual strains are in your path, and why, and whether it's true across the board or under what circumstances does it operate?
Not very significant. Every event, every action, every thought can create affects that spread through all of existance. I see Fate as the sum of those affects to an end... But that's not really "fate" is it. That's like Law of Energy or matter conversion, or something - but for the "supernatural."
I just realized now that all of this sounds disjointed and whacky. I'm feeling a little kooky tonight, so don't mind me.
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 am
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Generally, the magical mindest common to many Neopagan paths teaches that there is no such thing as cooincidence. Much of the premise behind magic comes from reading meaningfulness into events that most would dismiss to chance and such. For example, one with a magical mindset might interpret a grasshopper flying in one's face as a sign from a deity to pay attention to where one is walking; anyone else would probably just think "stupid bug, jumping in front of me like that."
Of course, not all Neopagans hold to this magical mindset or do so to varying degrees. How I usually put it is that reality is largely a construct of the mind, meaningfulness exists based on the individual's decision to assign it to the sittuation. Even if there is a meaningfulness that the individual misses, to them psychologically, if they decide it lacks meaning, they will act and think in accord with that belief as if it were the absolute truth.
From a personal standpoint, I cannot help but to lean on the side of determinism as science points in that direction. Causes have precise effects; our limits as a species keeps us from being able to see all the nuances. Functionally, it is as IF we have free will (and so we act in accord with this belief) since we are incapable of fully grasping the complex causes-effects web that is the universe. Hypothetically, the unusually psychical can see this web better than most hence their ability.
As far as applying it to my Path... the only thing it really effects that I can think of off the top of my head is magical ethic. There's this magical ethic that states you shouldn't interfere with someone's free will with a spell. Knowing through both experience and education that we're always influencing and infringing every second of every day, I place much more importance on the nature OF the influence. I'm going to influence everything around me whether I want to or not. The question isn't whether to 'infringe' or not... it is what sort of influence I want to be. That makes for a much more complicated ethical sittuation, but hey... whoever said life was simple?
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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:43 pm
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I suppose the best way I can explain this is with a metaphor...
Shakespeare hit it about right for this...
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players
They have their exits and their entrances...
We all also have our lines, our scripts.
Our Great crowning moment on stage is our Destiny, that greatness we are alotted and scheduled to have...
The pitfalls, the failings, the difficulties... these are our Fate.
However, we have something else...
My tradition believes in free will.
We have the ability to take the script, and throw it out.
The stage can be remade by a cunning improv... and if enough of the actors take up arms, we can even change the set... the tools are all there, even if not lying on stage... they are still in the theatre... ninja
Now mind you, this is likely to irritate some of the audience, and most directors and playwrites will be screaming for your blood, and they may even take the stage to try to set things back on script, or even try to wipe the whole of the floor clear... but the show will go on. wink
As far as luck, well, I like to wager that is either part of the script, or subtle inteference from helpful (or harmful) stagecrew.
I personally don't believe in coincidence... only the illusion of coincidence. ninja
The sum total being, following one's script is the path of least resistance, and the way things are most likely to turn out, but not guarnateed... at least, that's my take. wink
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:43 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:05 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:30 pm
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phoenix shadowwolf Fiddlers Green I suppose the best way I can explain this is with a metaphor... Shakespeare hit it about right for this... All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players
They have their exits and their entrances...this is very nearly what i myself subscribe to. yes, i believe that outside forces can work on one's life. the gods, the ancestors, those around me, the nature spirits, everything can play a part to influence or attempt to direct my life. ultimately, it's my choice to follow it, ignore it, or tell them to bugger off.
I've found some things are less likely to bugger off than others. Probably the most resistent is personal characteristics; I have a few I wouldn't mind jettisoning, but it would result in me essentially not being me anymore, and likely me not being sane or pleasant to be around. |
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:23 pm
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I have been trying to post in this thread forever!
The concepts- fate, luck, destiny, chance- they are incredibly complex in my belief system.
Luck- often linguistically translated as Bok, exists on three levels. General, Familial and Personal. General Luck creates the twists and turns that are designed for those on their path. Familial Bok is similar to concepts present in Asatru, it is gathered and cared for by the head of the family, both in the Tsera and Familia. Personal Luck- personal Bok, is one’s personal twists and turns. More over, Bok can be personified and spoken with. However, Bok is never bartered for. It is not a “points system” or anything that can be bargained for. It can- at times, be directed however, at times even loaned.
As an example:
One wouldn’t make offerings to a personified aspect of Bok. One might tell said personified aspects that they will do something for you- and how talented you are as an individual will make them more or less inclined to listen to you.
Personal Bok often does things to trump General Bok. The Personified aspects of Bok that care for families or individuals seem to be protective- to an extent. It’s more of a “No one messes with my little brother but me” than a “No harm shall befall thee”.
While one cannot bribe Bok, one can create pleasant or unpleasant situations for Personified Bok to exist around oneself. “Lucky Charms” are often examples of such “pleasant” habitats for personified Bok to exist, and unpleasant situations- such as violating Taboos drive Personified Bok away, often leaving one to fend without the would-be “protective” wing of one’s Personal Bok.
The major advantage to holding strong Personal Bok over being given over to General Bok or worse- Fate, Chance and Destiny, is that Personal Bok tends to generate more learning experiences- or at least more amusement in a language you can understand.
Fate- often translated as Oorme.
If Luck are the Twists and Turns, Oorme is the road itself.
Oorme is the underlying drone that unifies the other forces. Oorme exists on a General and Personal Level, but not on a Familial level. While Oorme cannot be bartered with, it can be forcibly moved or altered. Not unlike taking a bulldozer to the road itself, one can make active choices that bend and shape the road. Some aspects of Oorme are harder to overcome than others- however, nothing about Oorme undermines one’s Free Will. Oorme is personified in the Dola who spin a child’s Oorme three days after it is born.
Oorme is more passive than it’s cousin, Katlidrom.
Destiny- or Katlidrom is an active hand that shifts one’s Oorme, Bok and Smenidas. While within Oorme, if one’s road leads to something you don’t want, you can work around it- Katlidrom will drag you to a situation kicking and screaming, to the point where it will surround you until you deal with the situation at hand. Katlidrom is rare. Most things people hold as Katlidrom are really Oorme that they haven’t outsmarted yet.
Cheerus- chance. Unlike Bok, which exists for a reason, Cheerus really is random. Pure chaos- it doesn’t act with will, desire or nature. It is completely random- kind of like getting hit with Bird s**t. It isn’t even really worth having a separate concept were it not for the fact that some stuff really is just fluke. It is specifically “without cause”. At least Bok happens- if for no other reason, than for Bok’s own “amusement”.
Of note- there are beings that take interest in one’s Fate, Luck, Destiny and Chance.
Fate is conducted by the Ursitory and the Dola. Dola act as a bridge between Bok and Oorme. The Ursitory work the other way, acting as a bridge between Oorme and Bok. Families and individuals have Bok, and “personified Bok”, where in the Bok has become aware- and acts of it’s own accord. Certain deities also hold interest in these things- including Mokosh, Amari De, Alako, Sarah-la-Kali and a handful of others.
While I don't make a habit of bribing said other beings, I am more than happy to reason with them- by pointing out that placing me in a certain situation may be baneful or beneficial to them depending on my mood.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:05 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:16 pm
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:28 pm
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