Culture and the Modern Angstpuff

[TatteredAngel]

We talk a lot on this guild and elsewhere about what cultural heritage means, who has a right to what, who can claim heritage, etc. Feathers get ruffled and feelings get hurt. Not uncommon, or necessarily a bad thing. People need correction when they’re wrong, and people will be wrong. It just happens. But I see some conversations, and there’s something that bothers me a bit, so I’d just like to see some input on it.

It seems to me a lot of people (mostly young, American people) feel like they’re grasping at straws when trying to figure out their cultural niche. As stated elsewhere, it doesn’t necessarily matter where our ancestors came from, so simply going back to your roots may very well not be the answer. We are, undeniably, part of the American Culture. But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything spiritually. So on a spiritual front, a lot of people feel really uncertain and want to find something they can become a part of. And that’s hard.

I think in part it can be hard to understand what makes someone part of a culture- and where the criteria are. I certainly don’t profess to know. I’ve been living in New Mexico for over a decade. I did a great deal of my growing up here. Am I a part of New Mexican culture? I would like to think so, but I can’t state it with any authority. I am not Native American, and could never be part of any of the particular religions around here. But their religion is also tied heavily into the generic culture here, and it seems that you do not have to be culturally a part of them to have your own encounters with their religious elements. But for someone young and searching, what does that mean? Does it mean that one can have a connection with a native diety figure, if not through the same religious means? Certainly different tribes here have different ways of making contact with their gods, and many here share the same gods.

I’m just asking because I see how it can seem to some people that all they hear is “no,” and when they want something spiritual to connect to, and don’t understand whose rules they may be breaking, it’s a frustrating situation. So outside of all of the things that your generic Heinz 57 mutt with no strong cultural heritage does not have a right to, where can you say they do have, if not a right, at least a chance of building a connection to something they are not already a part of?  

[TeaDidikai]

TatteredAngel

It seems to me a lot of people (mostly young, American people) feel like they’re grasping at straws when trying to figure out their cultural niche. As stated elsewhere, it doesn’t necessarily matter where our ancestors came from, so simply going back to your roots may very well not be the answer. We are, undeniably, part of the American Culture. But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything spiritually. So on a spiritual front, a lot of people feel really uncertain and want to find something they can become a part of. And that’s hard.

There are usually a couple approches to this I find reasonable.

First would be to work to establish a relationship with Deities that mean something to you.

A number of religions aren't metagenetic.
Hellenic Recon, Asatru... both of these paths are open to anyone who is called without the requirements that an established ethnic culture would place on a person.

The gods of the Celts are able to extend membership to people they need.

Quote:

I think in part it can be hard to understand what makes someone part of a culture- and where the criteria are. I certainly don’t profess to know. I’ve been living in New Mexico for over a decade. I did a great deal of my growing up here. Am I a part of New Mexican culture?

(My personal guess is that unless you live in a hole- you likely do belong to New Mexico's culture).

Quote:

I would like to think so, but I can’t state it with any authority. I am not Native American, and could never be part of any of the particular religions around here. But their religion is also tied heavily into the generic culture here, and it seems that you do not have to be culturally a part of them to have your own encounters with their religious elements.

I spent time up here working for some of the "Salish" tribes. I was accepted because I worked hard, watched closely and listened.

I was excepted into the Sinti Group I spent time with because I gave my friend Cory a run for her money, and I was respectful of tradition and all in all didn't make an a** of myself.

I was excepted into the Celts because something about me inspires my brother to love me enough to fill the roles in my life which I asked of him, while I meet his needs as well.

Closed cultures do not exist in a vacuum. They just aren't as easy to access as other cultures- and even then, there are limits applied in some cases. For example- within the Celts, once a Celt, always a Celt.

However, amongst the Rroma- my husband will never hold a position of Status amongst the Sinti as it is extended to me and me alone by Cory and her family.

Quote:

But for someone young and searching, what does that mean? Does it mean that one can have a connection with a native diety figure, if not through the same religious means? Certainly different tribes here have different ways of making contact with their gods, and many here share the same gods.

I always find this interesting. Part of what helps some of these cultures connect to their gods is a cultural understanding of how things work.

If for example- your mind is programmed to think of a color as Orange, you're going to need to completely rework your approach to the color before you can even begin to understand it.

This is what Culture does. It provides a pattern in which thought expressed in a spiritual sense relates to those who have done what those who follow in their footsteps are trying to do.

This is why Recon traditions are popular amongst people as they move out of the Fluffy Bunny stage- because an understanding that one's personal paradigm that falls short can be replaced by the experience of those who have come before.

Quote:

I’m just asking because I see how it can seem to some people that all they hear is “no,” and when they want something spiritual to connect to, and don’t understand whose rules they may be breaking, it’s a frustrating situation. So outside of all of the things that your generic Heinz 57 mutt with no strong cultural heritage does not have a right to, where can you say they do have, if not a right, at least a chance of building a connection to something they are not already a part of?

Completely depends on the individual and their interest outside of religion.

For example- they may have a place in an Open Recon Trad. Or maybe they belong in Chaos Magic, or perhaps in Generic Neo-Paganism, or even Urban Primitiveism, or Naturalism or a host of other things- maybe they are meant to connect with a deity no one else has been with before.

As long as they test their gnosis and work with reason- they shouldn't have a problem.

Heck- depending on where their path takes them, there are a host of different terms that might apply to them.  

[TatteredAngel]

I just wanna pop off a quick thanks. Your responses are always so detailed, and I always appreciate them. I'd like to jump off your responses with a few more questions, but later when I'm not utterly exhausted and behind on homework. Heh.  

[Sir_Catherine]

Great intro to culture, spirituality and self.

For my own part I've grown up in the continental U.S.A but feel utterly alien sometimes. From what I've read of culture, I realize I identify far more strongly with English culture and heritage. I have some English roots and also some German, Austrian, French and Irish. Mostly German I think. But based on my mentality, ethos and other vague judges of one's self, I am English at heart. Funny thing is just about every one who knows me agrees so it's not just my own thoughts here.

This doesn't mean much on the spirituality front, but as far as fitting in to culture, it explains a lot on my end. Somedays I just want to retreat into the woods to get away from standard American culture. Then I realize I don't want to be a hermit and the problem is far more fundamental and I retreat to the couch with a good book and cup of tea for solace.  

[TeaDidikai]

TatteredAngel

I just wanna pop off a quick thanks. Your responses are always so detailed, and I always appreciate them. I'd like to jump off your responses with a few more questions, but later when I'm not utterly exhausted and behind on homework. Heh.

My pleasure.

Sir_Catherine>> Have you been part of English Culture? (Ignore the fact that the difference between a Scouser and say a person from London Proper is an Ocean apart.)

How can you know that you are something until you actually are part of it?  

[Fiddlers Green]

It's difficult in our tatterdemalion nation...
So many cultures represented, but so mingled and mixed with others...
It is hard to find anything pure here... nation of refugees, radicals, and dispossed that we are. The native populace largely dead, or displaced...
It's very hard to find pure lined traditions in this nation... and the ones that continue to exist, tend to do so because they are insular and not terribly accessible...
But then again, mayhaps the soul of the nation (if not the land) is eclectic... just like it's populace and myraid cultures.

To clarify, I don't have objections to eclecticism in general, just when it claims to be something it isn't. wink  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

It's difficult in our tatterdemalion nation...
So many cultures represented, but so mingled and mixed with others...
It is hard to find anything pure here... nation of refugees, radicals, and dispossed that we are. The native populace largely dead, or displaced...
It's very hard to find pure lined traditions in this nation... and the ones that continue to exist, tend to do so because they are insular and not terribly accessible...
But then again, mayhaps the soul of the nation (if not the land) is eclectic... just like it's populace and myraid cultures.

To clarify, I don't have objections to eclecticism in general, just when it claims to be something it isn't. wink

Very well said indeed.

There is something of a culture to Mutt-ism, and different regions have their own spark of magic in my experience.  

[blindfaith^_^]

TatteredAngel

I think in part it can be hard to understand what makes someone part of a culture- and where the criteria are.

I think that has to be the hardest criteria to qualify, especially for younger people. Speaking as an American youth (20 still counts right XD), culture confuses me a lot. It's one of those things that sneak up on you, and I never reallly realized until I go other places and realize some of what I believe, do, eat, or say are not univerial like I thought but part of a local area community.

Another thing to qualify is that one's exact culture is made up of so many things. I have a strongly Italian family, I never realized it until I went to college and started to talk about common Italian traditions and foods that others didn't know about. I had spent all this time thinking these were standard fair in most family households and I felt a little stupid for assuming such.

Also there are so very many subcultures in any given area where certain words and terms have context only to the people who take part in a group. An example of this is that I am into the anime manga scene and a common response to a question one doesn't know the answer to in these groups could be "chi" with a head tilt, and the group knows this is a referene to chobits and laughs. I've accidentally done this before where there are no anime kids around and I just get weird stares.

Another example of this is the Resident Advisory position. Its a small campus and as a result 5% of the population on campus are RAs. We go through training together and come out with our own inside jokes, technical terms, and our own gossip mill with information that is confidential to the rest of the school but that we talk about all the time.

TatteredAngel

I certainly don’t profess to know. I’ve been living in New Mexico for over a decade. I did a great deal of my growing up here. Am I a part of New Mexican culture? I would like to think so, but I can’t state it with any authority. I am not Native American, and could never be part of any of the particular religions around here. But their religion is also tied heavily into the generic culture here, and it seems that you do not have to be culturally a part of them to have your own encounters with their religious elements.

This interests me a lot, especially when one talks about today's American youths (yes I am talking about my own generation and probably those younger too).

I live in MA, where I live specificly has very strong Christain roots. I and really anyone who is looking critically, can see the Christian influnce on our governing system.

I think something that is more interesting however is relgion and its common references made in literature. If one looks at British Lit or most common high school required reading there is a lot of Christian symbolism and metaphor in the works. Nuances such as these are not picked up by a lot of my classmates because they do not know the basics of Christainity. What does that say about the change in culture over time and the part religion plays culturally in society and the way we communicate now? I don't really know too much, just things to think about.

TatteredAngel

But for someone young and searching, what does that mean? Does it mean that one can have a connection with a native diety figure, if not through the same religious means? Certainly different tribes here have different ways of making contact with their gods, and many here share the same gods.

I think that one needs to know about the God(s) of the culture one grows up in (assuming there are any). That doesn't mean that the particular God(s) of that culture appeal to one, but I think its always good to have a solid foundation in what's around one.

I also think that while one might not belong to X religion, one can feel a connection to the deities. I'm not really sure how that works out, mostly because I don't feel that kind of connection and can't think of anyone who feels that way, but I can envision it.  

[TatteredAngel]

TeaDidikai

(My personal guess is that unless you live in a hole- you likely do belong to New Mexico's culture).

One of my homes here was Los Alamos, which is a bizarre little place that can be comparable to living in a hole. One with lots of scientists. wink Thus the lack of being completely sure.

Quote:

I always find this interesting. Part of what helps some of these cultures connect to their gods is a cultural understanding of how things work.

If for example- your mind is programmed to think of a color as Orange, you're going to need to completely rework your approach to the color before you can even begin to understand it.

Right. Which is one of those things in the "hard but not impossible" category, and I still think leaves open-ended where the lines are drawn. And sometimes they aren't. I see a lot of blending here of Catholocism and more traditional and magical mysticism that has very little, if anything, to do with Christianity. Some of it is flat out contradictory, yet so much a part of the culture that it is not seen as such by much of anyone but outsiders. I guess what I'm getting at is that even when you're in or surrounded by a culture, what is and is not a part of it can still be real fuzzy.

Quote:

maybe they are meant to connect with a deity no one else has been with before.

This one in particular seems like a real dangerous subject to bring up with the teen angst-like crowd. Couldn't this really easily become a Mr. Dark or percieved as kind of permission to just make stuff up as opposed to the real deal?

blindfaith^_^

Nuances such as these are not picked up by a lot of my classmates because they do not know the basics of Christainity. What does that say about the change in culture over time and the part religion plays culturally in society and the way we communicate now? I don't really know too much, just things to think about.

The bitchy English major in me says it's more to do with sloppy education than anything. However, it does have to do with culture. In a more secular culture, there will not be as much exposure to even the predominant religion as there may have been in times past. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's important when you're studying something to study the context too, and this includes the religion that surrounds literature.

Quote:

I also think that while one might not belong to X religion, one can feel a connection to the deities. I'm not really sure how that works out, mostly because I don't feel that kind of connection and can't think of anyone who feels that way, but I can envision it.

My personal take on this, again as a local example, is that there are varying degrees. Some native gods are probably only going to want to deal with their people. However, others are less concerned with who their people are particularly as opposed to who is there. I believe strongly that Coyote ******** around with a lot of us here, and though the connections may be different, spiritual encounters and affinities with Coyote are not uncommon.  

[TeaDidikai]

TatteredAngel

One of my homes here was Los Alamos, which is a bizarre little place that can be comparable to living in a hole. One with lots of scientists. wink Thus the lack of being completely sure.

Welcome to the Subculture that is Los Alamos.

Quote:

Right. Which is one of those things in the "hard but not impossible" category, and I still think leaves open-ended where the lines are drawn. And sometimes they aren't. I see a lot of blending here of Catholocism and more traditional and magical mysticism that has very little, if anything, to do with Christianity.

And I would argue that such a position is ignorance as to the overall nature of Christendom, but that is very much a different thread if not a different guild.

Quote:

Some of it is flat out contradictory, yet so much a part of the culture that it is not seen as such by much of anyone but outsiders. I guess what I'm getting at is that even when you're in or surrounded by a culture, what is and is not a part of it can still be real fuzzy.

But the importance is not merely the culture- but the way the culture affects your world view. That was where I was going with the color example.

The thoughts that go through one's head when you read: Orange (or when you hear myth...) is what gives context to the understanding.

Pretend for a moment that two languages formed with the word Orange- both meaning a color.

The first one considers This to be Orange. The second one considers This to be Orange.

Tell the first that Orange is the color of the setting sun, and they will consider the color they experience to be that of the sun itself.

Tell the second the same they and they will consider the experience to be not the orb of light, but the color around the darkening sky to be the experience.

~taps~ Was I typing in English?

Quote:

This one in particular seems like a real dangerous subject to bring up with the teen angst-like crowd. Couldn't this really easily become a Mr. Dark or percieved as kind of permission to just make stuff up as opposed to the real deal?

Could- but then, I'm not going to be responsible for what people might do with the information that I present as possibilities.  

[Kuroiban]

TatteredAngel

I just wanna pop off a quick thanks. Your responses are always so detailed, and I always appreciate them. I'd like to jump off your responses with a few more questions, but later when I'm not utterly exhausted and behind on homework. Heh.

Tea does deserve a good load of thanks for her uter dedication twards *ahem* gently correcting those who have a somewhat incorrect view of things.

But I have to also thank you quite muchly. I've been drifting in spirtuality, not really sure of what to do. I had finally come to the conclusion that this was, for the moment, alright; it was a stage of trying to find my place within the theological cosmos.

You're question got some gears turning in my head, which might bare some fruit at some point. I'm almost (though not quiet) without culture, in a manor of speaking. I grew up n a rough paralel to counter-culture, but even that is a tenious way of looking at. This really gave me a new spin, or at least another reason, on why I might be having such an issue with moving on theological. THanks for the new perspective. 3nodding  

[walkingundine]

Kuroiban

TatteredAngel

I just wanna pop off a quick thanks. Your responses are always so detailed, and I always appreciate them. I'd like to jump off your responses with a few more questions, but later when I'm not utterly exhausted and behind on homework. Heh.

Tea does deserve a good load of thanks for her uter dedication twards *ahem* gently correcting those who have a somewhat incorrect view of things.

But I have to also thank you quite muchly. I've been drifting in spirtuality, not really sure of what to do. I had finally come to the conclusion that this was, for the moment, alright; it was a stage of trying to find my place within the theological cosmos.

You're question got some gears turning in my head, which might bare some fruit at some point. I'm almost (though not quiet) without culture, in a manor of speaking. I grew up n a rough paralel to counter-culture, but even that is a tenious way of looking at. This really gave me a new spin, or at least another reason, on why I might be having such an issue with moving on theological. THanks for the new perspective. 3nodding

Indeed. How is it said? Ah, yes. 'Thank you, Ma'am! May I have another?'

I also come from MA. I arrived at Smith College as a total fluffbucket, white as Wonderbread and utterly convinced that I had a 'spirit animal'. That notion was kicked out of me so fast I think my butt broke the sound barrier. I now leave Native American stuff the hell alone because I have no right to it.
That fear of cultural appropriation is part of what has kept me away from any given tradition. My family are Conservative Jews, back as many generations as they can go. I have absolutely no interest in practicing Judaism anymore- I had it shoved down my throat as a kid, and it fits me like a left shoe on a right foot. So I don't want the faith I was adopted into, and I don't want to go mucking about with anything I shouldn't... So I wing it. When I need a deity for something, I snag an Egyptian god, or a Greek one, or very rarely a Celtic one.  

[Kuroiban]

walkingundine

Indeed. How is it said? Ah, yes. 'Thank you, Ma'am! May I have another?'

I also come from MA. I arrived at Smith College as a total fluffbucket, white as Wonderbread and utterly convinced that I had a 'spirit animal'. That notion was kicked out of me so fast I think my butt broke the sound barrier. I now leave Native American stuff the hell alone because I have no right to it.
That fear of cultural appropriation is part of what has kept me away from any given tradition. My family are Conservative Jews, back as many generations as they can go. I have absolutely no interest in practicing Judaism anymore- I had it shoved down my throat as a kid, and it fits me like a left shoe on a right foot. So I don't want the faith I was adopted into, and I don't want to go mucking about with anything I shouldn't... So I wing it. When I need a deity for something, I snag an Egyptian god, or a Greek one, or very rarely a Celtic one.

eek ~runs and takes cover~

Um...I have a generel hunch that even "rarely" calling to a Celtic diety might not be a very good call.  

[Pelta]

Thank you for your very interesting topic, Tattered. It's something that a lot of Americans at some point have to deal with.

The way I see it, culture is entirely different from person to person. Everyone has different ways of looking at the world, different mannerisms, ideas and perspectives. Even if you looked at a community as a whole there would be differences in "culture" from person to person. Everyone is an amalgamation of something.

I've got the absolute doozy when it comes to culture. American, so already a blood-mutt, grew up in five different countries and never lived in the country I was born in. I can't be Irish, although I have some of the mannerisms, because of my American accent and tendency to throw in Hungarian, French and Greek phrases. But in the end that's my culture. It's a personal thing more than anything else. Nobody else has lived the exact life I have so my culture is my own. As any culture is. There may be shared traits with other people, but in the end each person is an individual.

Metagenetic gods may be closed to you, but when there are possibly millions of deities to the discerning polytheist, is that really such a loss? Just because there's more information on them doesn't mean they're the only gods out there. Not being tied to a culture may sometimes even be an advantage...