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While I respect Ahram's (the origional author of the first post) I must disagree, to a degree.

Now, I know this may be familiar to some of you, as I posted this a few months back, but here's my opinion... again.

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The blood-dance.net were very eloquently written, they have no factual or historical backing whatsoever. Azhram is a great person for helping to diffuse a lot of the negative stereotypes and imagery that have been branded onto the Goth culture, however she cites no sources, gives no actual recorded historical events, and -- in short -- her articles are merely her personal opinion, and should not be regarded as empirical fact.

According to history: Goth is a subculture centered around music, fashion, and social interests (music being, by far, the most important).

Here's the history.

In the 1970's, after the British economy had been decimated by the aftershock effects of World War II, there arose a group of kids who expressed their disappointment and anger through music and art. These kids were called Punks. They even developed their own unique brand of music--named "Punk rock". As Punk spread and diversified, there arose a number of different subtypes of Punk. Some of these Punk sub-types included: Deathrock, Futurist, New Romantic, and, yes, Goth.

Azhram seems to want to connect the New Romantic movement as the movement from which Goth sprouted. However, it should be noted that Goth came straight from Punk. The New Romantic movement was a more genteel version of Punk that eventually become, in essence, an anti-Punk movement. Whereas Punks were raw, untamed, angry, and obscene, New Romantics were elegant, fashionable, and sophisticated. The New Romantic movement sprouted from an area of London called Soho. New Romantics originally called themselves "Posers" in a sort of joking manner, because they were part of the underground scene, but the main thrust of their movement (and they admitted this) was just clothing fashion. They just liked to dress up was all. This group formed itself in a club called Louise's. In 1978, that club closed down, and the bulk of the scene began to congregate in another club called Gossips. When they outgrew that club, they moved to a bigger club called Blitz, where a lot of them gathered. When the media began to seek to cover this phenomenon, they started dubbing these Posers as New Romantics because of their affinity for things from the Romantic era. New Romantics were also called Blitzers on occasion. Their music and fashion styles differed very greatly from that of Goth, however.

In the late 70's (starting in 1976), a group of punk rock bands began to emerge that had a notably darker, more introverted, hollow sound. This subgenre included bands like The Cure, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Siouxsie & the Banshees, and UK Decay. These bands gained popularity in what is now called the "Post-Punk" era. A lot of Goth Rock often overlaps with Post-Punk Rock. For a while, the early Goth rock bands were lumped in with the Post-Punk genre. These early goth bands, however, started out with a very lively, raw, punky sound. Around 1978-1982, these bands began to develop their darker aesthetic.

It was during this time that these bands (and the music media) were looking for a term to describe this new form of Punk. They sometimes got called a branch of Post-Punk, or of New Wave. In the early 1980's, Richard North, a music journalist from the magazine NME, called it "Positive Punk" because it was calmer and less angry and aggressive than Punk rock, but still embodied the edginess and cynicism of the mother movement. The two most notable uses of the term "gothic" to describe the genre took place in the summer of 1979. On a BBC program called "Something Else," Tony Wilson, the band manager of Joy Division, called Joy Division's music "gothic in comparison with mainstream pop." Of course, by "gothic," he meant it in the traditional sense that their music was raw, crude, inventive, unpolished, etc. Also, in an interview with Susan Dallion (Siouxsie Sioux), the lead singer of Siouxsie & the Banshees, she stated that she thought her music was going in a "gothic" direction.

Around this time, other music journalists and artists began using the term "gothic" to describe this genre. Also in 1979, in a Factory Records interview with Mary Hannon, she described Joy Division's music as "dancing music with gothic overtones." In October of that year, a music reporter named Penny Kiley of Liverpool, called Joy Division "gothic, in the same effect as that of the Banshees." Another review by a reporter named Des Moines, repeated this by calling Joy Division "gothic dance music." In 1979, Siouxsie & the Banshees described their "Join Hands" album as "gothic", and in 1981, Steve Severin - founding member of the Banshees - referred to their Juju album as "gothic." And in 1981 as well, Abbo from the band UK Decay referred to his musical genre as a "gothic thing".

"Goths" as a term to describe a group of people came about in 1982, quite as a joke, actually. Andi Sex-Gang, the lead singer of early Goth band "The Sex Gang Children" used to dress up in a big, dark gothic warchief outfit. It became somewhat of a joke. Ian Astbury of the Goth band "Southern Death Cult" made a joke in an interview with Dave Thompson and Jo-Anne Green of "Alternative Press." He stated that Andi Sex-Gang should be called "Count Visigoth," because of his stage appearance, and thus all of his followers should be called "gothic pixies" or "goths". It was very common during the Punk movement for fans of a band to dress up like the band members. And so, when The Cure would play, all the fans that came to see them would dress up like Robert Smith... and when Siouxsie would play, all the fans would come dressed up as her. The same with Andi Sex-Gang and other Goth rock artists.

After Ian Astbury made this comment, other music journalists began to pick up on this term, and since it was a fitting enough term for the brand of music, it stuck. The Goth movement became centralized with the opening of the Batcave club in London in July of 1982. The club first opened as a venue for all types of underground, alternative music, but their list was always very open to Goth Rock acts. Eventually, Goth Rock became so popular at the Batcave that it practically consumed the club, and today the Batcave is known as a Goth club. The Batcave connected fans of these darker Post-Punk bands like Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, UK Decay, and Joy Division, and spread an entire subculture from this point--with its own clothing/appearance style and aesthetic. In 1983, the Batcave toured around England, playing their bands at several different clubs across the country, inflating their following.

Around the same time in the early 80's, a similar scene began to develop mainly in Los Angeles, called the "Deathrock" scene. Though it was a little different from the Goth Rock scene at first, they eventually just merged by default and today are the same thing.

As Goth Rock grew in popularity amongst the alternative youth of the West, the term became used more and more frequently in the media. The movement died down in the late 1980's, and a number of Goths still remain to this day, and many more fans are added to the Goth Rock movement every year. In the 1990's, there began to arise some confusion about what exactly Goth Rock was. A lot of people mistakenly connected the term "Goth" in reference to the 80's punk music scene with the term "Goth" in reference to the Medieval/Victorian eras. As a result, people who were unfamiliar with the Goth Rock scene started thinking that anything "dark" or "spooky" was part of the movement. Of course, they were wrong, but since this became such a common stereotype, it has since been ingrained into society. Accordingly, people began to see any band that was "dark" or "disturbing" as a Goth band (including Marilyn Manson, Linkin Park, and other metal/industrial/ebm/etc bands). Since then, there have even been people who think that just because they wear all black, have a "dark" mindset, or produce creepy artwork or music are followers of the "Goth" movement. They are not. All the available historical data points to the fact that Goth was and is a music-centered subculture. It seems to have developed its own form of fashion and appearance, but even this is highly varied in the scene (compare Peter Murphy, Siouxsie Sioux, Adam Ant, and Ian Curtis and you'll get some very different ideas of how Goth Rockers dress). However, the one constant amongst all these people was the music genre that they enjoyed--Goth Rock.

The epicenter of Goth is music, and Goth is a product of Punk Rock. It did not come from the New Romantic, Hippie, Beatnik, or Metal cultures, regardless of what many imaginative, fanciful minds will purport.

In short, the Goth movement is a scene centered around Music (Goth Rock), Appearance Style, and Social Life (clubs in particular) -- the most important of these being the Music. Goth Rock music is the beginning, the end, the center, the foundation, the crown and the body of the Goth movement.
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While goth may today mean something more like "dark, creative, and thoughfull" to those who are within the scene, the simple fact is that the "goth" of tody originated as a product of music.
Besides the media influence, one of the reason for the "intelligent, dark, creative" sterotype among goths is that these type of people generally enjoyed gothic rock. The congrgation of these sorts of people naturally allowed the strotype to occur since so many of the fans of gothic rock were these sorts of people. Goths were made goth by the music. They mythos that to be goth you must be a creative intelligent person developed because many goths were/are intelligent and creative. 0
There have, of course, always been people who are darker, creative, and intelligent, but they weren't "goth" as the term is defined. They were simply intelligent people.

I will agree that there is, becasue of how these sterotypes have effected our culture, a sort of "gothicness" about the dark creativity that many goths seem to posess. I will also agree that there is a generall additude among the gothic comunity of open-mindedness and curiosity. But I will stand by my view that these things are simply secondary to the music.

Of course, I've also proposed the idea that the musical-type goth that I described might be called the "original, or classic" goth. And that the new goth, the one based off of creativity and curosity be dubbed "New goth, or Romantagoth" (for the genarally "romantic" feeling of the culture) as to avoid confusion.

@DieiNoctis:

Excellent history. One of the best descriptions of the goth-culture's history I've read.

To GilAskan:

Thank you.
It seems to me that there's too much falacy concerning the gothic culture floating around the internet. It's sad when a group of individuals can't even agree on a definition for what they are, let alone a common history. The most inclusive thing the goth community as a whole has going for it at the moment can pretty much be summed up as, "Has a visible interest in darker things (both asthetically, and psychologically), is different from the average person."
And really, that's a pretty pathetic definition to hinge an entire culture on.

To those of you who skipped my history lesson:
Shame on you. If you entered this thread looking to find out what goth is really all about, you should take a look at my post.
Even if you disagree with it, it is an empiracally based peice, and as such contains valuable insights to our culture. Read up on how (I think) we began.
... even though it may be an imposing wall of text sweatdrop .