Pentagrams and Elements

[bobz]

I'm going to peek out and ask a question that will almost certainly seem horribly basic but has been running through my head for a while now.

I've seen pentacles for a while now, and in a fair few traditions the points are assigned elements. My main issue is that even within what is roughly the same tradition I've seen the elements shifted around.
Not going to go and get specific references today as I want more trustworthy sources but speaking from todays wanderings i've seen them assigned as
(from the top, moving clockwise)

Ether, Water, Fire, Earth, Air
or sometimes
Ether, Air, Fire, Water, Earth

And I'm almost certain that there's many more that put them differently.
My real question here is why put that element there?

ps
I know that the reasoning would probably differ depending on someones tradition, so to clarify I'm just looking for outer court wicca info for now, though if anyone's tradition puts them in any order for different reasons I'd love to hear about them as well..


pps
I'm horribly sleepy right now. I'm probably going to come back to this post in the morning and go "ugh? I wrote that?" and delete or heavily edit it, so please point out where my sleep-dep has caused gaping holes in cognitive thought.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ah joy. This is where I get to gnaw on neo-pagan magical "theory". ~arms herself with a Nurf bat to defend her bastardization of the word~

The shifting of the elements comes from an ingrained placement and order conflicted established by the fact that the pentagram is a unicursal design.

With the associations with directions, some people place the elements in line with the directions themselves. However, with the nature of the order given due to the direction of change within the correspondences, some people apply them via the flow of the unicursal design as they would if the elements were laid out in the circle.


Which is "right" doesn't much matter to me. I don't use pents save for that pretty trivet.  

[Aya Azura]

I don't think that placing really matters, because isn't the pentagram supposed to symbolize all of the elements surrounded by the love of the gods, so whichever where you put them, they would still be surrounded by the love of the gods. Spirit is always on top, right? confused Confused...  

[Starlock]

The placement does matter in a sense, but it depends on what you're using the pentagram FOR. The best way to figure things out is to do a butload of research on the Greek elemental system (which I'm in the midst of and not completely finished with yet) and from there trace it through to the modern times. Each system has its own justification for what goes where and depending on what you're using as your prime model, certain configurations will make sense but others won't.

I'll use an example of the case I'm most familiar with. If, for example, you want to use the pentagram (or pentacle, whichever) for an invokation ritual, you'll want the elements to be aligned in such a way that when you draw out the pentagram they'll be in synch with the elemental rotation (the elemental rotation, in short, is the cycle of transition in the elements outlined by Aristotle and goes Air-Fire-Earth-Water). Using that system, spirt should be at the apex (where you start drawing), air in the lower right, fire in the upper left, earth in the upper right, and water in the lower left.

But there are of course other systems to use other than that one. If you dig around there are some articles on the net that discuss the assignment of the elements to the points of the pentagram, but I don't have the URLs on me offhand.  

[Aila-al-Jehan]

Aya Azura

I don't think that placing really matters, because isn't the pentagram supposed to symbolize all of the elements surrounded by the love of the gods, so whichever where you put them, they would still be surrounded by the love of the gods. Spirit is always on top, right? confused Confused...

Well, placing could mean something i some cultures. You never know. Just like how Fire corresponds with the south an earth with hte north in neo-wicca.

Circles mean WAY too many things to just classify it as the love of the gods. What they are I cant think of right now (doing three things at once) but ill get to it later.

Spirit goes on top when you are talking about the spiritual having greater importance than the material. If you are ttalking about material over sspiritual, you place it upside down.

The Meaning of the Pentacle  

[bobz]

Oh deary, I was high on sleep-dep when I wrote this. Prehaps a more lucid explination of the information I was looking for goes like this:
The pentagram (as I've often seen it) has 5 points with lines intersecting, some of these lines go over others, then under. Some go under others and then over. I've taken this to represent the interrelation between elements along a natural progression. The placement of those elements of course depends on your own traditions progression, though this most often is coming from a meaningful first source. What I was wondering is...
Am I reading this wrong? Or.... is it just reading clockwise around the circle?
Now i've asked that...
*runs off to reference books*  

[Aila-al-Jehan]

bobz

Oh deary, I was high on sleep-dep when I wrote this. Prehaps a more lucid explination of the information I was looking for goes like this:
The pentagram (as I've often seen it) has 5 points with lines intersecting, some of these lines go over others, then under. Some go under others and then over. I've taken this to represent the interrelation between elements along a natural progression. The placement of those elements of course depends on your own traditions progression, though this most often is coming from a meaningful first source. What I was wondering is...
Am I reading this wrong? Or.... is it just reading clockwise around the circle?
Now i've asked that...
*runs off to reference books*

you read it fine. look at the link i posted.  

[TeaDidikai]

Unicursal designs are very popular within a number of occult practices.

Depending on the tradition, I can understand why it would be important. Aila makes a good point on that matter.