Deviation in Divination: are norms necessary?

[NoSuchCreature]

(I tend to start threads with a very shakey assumption that I actually know what I'm talking about, yet throw caution to the wind in the hopes that I really do. Bear with me if my mental roulette wheel of sense and nonsense didn't give me such good luck this time).

Divination, as I assume to be a given, is a form of seeking insight, varied among several cultures, old and new. Among one path or another, this or that method has popularly been confirmed as reliable.

But what, exactly, are the common beliefs as to how it works? A signifcant number of methods seem to base themselves on a form of randomization that proportionately represents most possible outcomes (by which I refer to things more or less like the Tarot), while others seem to be hinged more on emptying thoughts and waiting for images and ideas to come up without conscious influence, occasionally with the help of some mind-altering affect or the other (by which I refer to things more or less like scrying, in all its flavors), and everything else tends to borrow one of these two themes to some extent or the other.

If things work because of these elements to divination, does that mean that other forms, even ones entirely made-up or improvised, can work just as well, so long as it has a foundation of randomization or altered states of consciousness? And if so, how far can this be taken to that effect? Can an electronic random number generator provide the same effects as a deck of cards? Can spinning yourself in a swivel chair to get that dizzy feeling inspire the same thoughts to cross a person's mind as if they lost focus staring into a crystal ball? If there is a limit, what are other potentially accurate ways of finding answers to otherwise hard-to-answer questions?

And if not, what other qualities of the more traditional forms are necessary for divining to be successful?  

[TeaDidikai]

The most pragmatic of answers suggests that one's intuition holds answers that are coded in symbology. This symbolism is a function of abstract metaphoric thought. Communication of actual situations is done through bridging the symbolism with the concrete situations at hand.

Numerology, Runes from all cultures, stones, flowers, birds, tarot, pictures- the lists go on. Each tradition approaches these symbols with an association.

Now- I've heard some Asatru suggest that World creation, the golden age of the gods, the twilight of the gods, and Ragnarok is completely cyclical.

In my path, there is a concept known as Prav- which is basically the laws by which the universe works. These laws also influence the "rightness" of a seerer's craft.  

[Deoridhe]

TeaDidikai

In my path, there is a concept known as Prav- which is basically the laws by which the universe works. These laws also influence the "rightness" of a seerer's craft.

A similar concept would be that of Wyrd in Asatru. Wyrd isn't sentient, but it both orders things and is the culmination of all of the choices made by all of the beings in the universe.  

[NoSuchCreature]

(For some reason, I find some sort of entertainment in the fact that that dice roll got the highest possible multiple of 7 it could get...anyway)

Ooh, would it be rude of me to ask more about both the Prav and the Wyrd?

And given these answers, would that mean it's fairly safe to say that anything that turns you into a subconscious mouthpiece without putting yourself in physical or spiritual danger is up for use?  

[TeaDidikai]

~blink~ I forgot about Wyrd!? I must be slipping.

Prav enforces "rightness". It applies to the fact that a stone's nature is to fall down to the ground- that an oak tree's branches reach towards the sun.

As for Prav and tools by the seerer- it would require that the tool be "right" for the seerer to use (let alone if it is right for the person to be a seerer).

It is not within Prav for some people to use Talking Boards. It is not within Prav for some people to worship certain gods. And, like the Asatru Wyrd, Prav applies to gods as well.  

[bobz]

Fluffy Little Octopus

If things work because of these elements to divination, does that mean that other forms, even ones entirely made-up or improvised, can work just as well, so long as it has a foundation of randomization or altered states of consciousness? And if so, how far can this be taken to that effect? Can an electronic random number generator provide the same effects as a deck of cards? Can spinning yourself in a swivel chair to get that dizzy feeling inspire the same thoughts to cross a person's mind as if they lost focus staring into a crystal ball? If there is a limit, what are other potentially accurate ways of finding answers to otherwise hard-to-answer questions?

And if not, what other qualities of the more traditional forms are necessary for divining to be successful?

I would say that anything COULD work to be used in divination, remember, people use some odd things. Weights on bits of string, tea leaves and balls of crystal. Still others may divine in dreams. Generally involved though would be
(A) randomness, no system would work if it always gave an expected result.
(B) Altered states of conciousness, Most systems would ask that at least a moment be taken to frame a question being asked. To prepare the mind to take heed of whatever signs it might be getting.
(C) A system that includes as many (if not all) possible outcomes, something that always predicts that one will win the lottery or that no ill might happen to someone wouldn't give accurate results to everyone.

Now... That said why make a entire system from scratch when there are so many out there?
Also, given your earlier question, simply no, not everything that turns you into a subconcious mouthpiece could really be counted as "safe" when it comes to physical or spiritual danger. Especially when defined like that, it really does depend what would be speaking through you.  

[NoSuchCreature]

bobz

Now... That said why make a entire system from scratch when there are so many out there?

Why? To explore as many possible processes to finding a solution as you feel free to, and possibly even find that your own self-made system speaks to you on a more personal level than a deck first organized around five hundred years ago in Italy.

bobz

Also, given your earlier question, simply no, not everything that turns you into a subconcious mouthpiece could really be counted as "safe" when it comes to physical or spiritual danger. Especially when defined like that, it really does depend what would be speaking through you.

The way I defined it included "without putting yourself in physical or spiritual danger." Meaning, I was looking for any advisories against it outside of all the astral nasties out there that would look at someone in a trance and see a piece of fresh meat,* which I already assumed could be taken care of with some ritual or whatnot to filter most of that out anyway.

*or anything that was damaging to your health on just a corporeal level, although that's half the idea to some systems already in use  

[bobz]

Fluffy Little Octopus

bobz

Now... That said why make a entire system from scratch when there are so many out there?

Why? To explore as many possible processes to finding a solution as you feel free to, and possibly even find that your own self-made system speaks to you on a more personal level than a deck first organized around five hundred years ago in Italy.

Exellent, just wanted to make sure on that. It is very important that whatever method you pick speaks to you. Otherwise you might as well be listening to noise. I suppose I was trying to say that whatever system you do make up will eventually need debugging, while some traditions hold it as fine to do divination with anything up to a pack of blank cards filled in that morning, others might want something that's been in use for longer. Personally I don't mind the method of divination used, as long as the diviner is good enough it should be possible to use handfuls of gravel as long as you have a method. Though I'm not sure I'd start off on a homemade system.

bobz

Meaning, I was looking for any advisories against it outside of all the astral nasties out there that would look at someone in a trance and see a piece of fresh meat,* which I already assumed could be taken care of with some ritual or whatnot to filter most of that out anyway.

Well that's what I was worried a little about, I wasn't about to go advocating someone to go and try a homemade system when it potentially could involve anything so I added my 2 bits of warning.  

[NoSuchCreature]

bobz

Exellent, just wanted to make sure on that. It is very important that whatever method you pick speaks to you. Otherwise you might as well be listening to noise. I suppose I was trying to say that whatever system you do make up will eventually need debugging, while some traditions hold it as fine to do divination with anything up to a pack of blank cards filled in that morning, others might want something that's been in use for longer. Personally I don't mind the method of divination used, as long as the diviner is good enough it should be possible to use handfuls of gravel as long as you have a method. Though I'm not sure I'd start off on a homemade system.

Don't worry, I haven't. I was just musing about this. mrgreen

bobz

Well that's what I was worried a little about, I wasn't about to go advocating someone to go and try a homemade system when it potentially could involve anything so I added my 2 bits of warning.

Ah, then the warning was appreciated nonetheless. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

I'd like to pose this question: How much of divination do you think it is the tool used over the talent of the seerer?  

[NoSuchCreature]

TeaDidikai

I'd like to pose this question: How much of divination do you think it is the tool used over the talent of the seerer?

From what I know so far, I think the talent of the diviner is the most driving factor, but the tools are what help bridge unconscious reception to conscious interpretation.

An analogy as I see it so far would be that the seerer is like a television set or radio, trying to pick up a good channel. The tools are like antennae, and both come in all shapes and sizes (rabbit ears, wire loops/crystals, pendelums, etc.), and some may work better or worse for the set for different purposes (and, of course, you can always give your own twist to things, such as using substitutes for certain tools, or in this analogy, some crumpled-up tinfoil).

There's also the issue of the location you're trying to get reception from, including your distance from the station you're trying to reach and the objects jamming up your signal (such as astral nasties, the analogical lousy station that bleeds in with the one you're trying to get).

Would that be close to accurate?  

[TeaDidikai]

I'm inclined to disagree.

A seer's talent is not detracted by the tools used.

If all there was to divination was understanding the symbology, anyone would be able to give profound and accurate readings. It's not the case. Some of the people I respect most within the community I am a part of have no talent for divination.  

[AingealOreiad]

TeaDidikai

I'd like to pose this question: How much of divination do you think it is the tool used over the talent of the seerer?

Having no talent for dininatin at ALL, and being at the mercy of others, I think that the talent comes from the person. However, the method used does play into the reading. For example, Sally is very talented, but her readings are much better with Tarot than with runes, and she can't make a pendulum work at all.  

[TeaDidikai]

AingealOreiad

TeaDidikai

I'd like to pose this question: How much of divination do you think it is the tool used over the talent of the seerer?

Having no talent for dininatin at ALL, and being at the mercy of others, I think that the talent comes from the person. However, the method used does play into the reading. For example, Sally is very talented, but her readings are much better with Tarot than with runes, and she can't make a pendulum work at all.

Hence the earlier statement about Prav within my tradition. mrgreen