Wicca Infodump Mark two

[CuAnnan]

For general review and pedantic/semantic/factual assault. Bear in mind that this is still a work in progress.

I

What is Wicca?

Wicca, as defined by the covens which stem off Gardner's original coven, is a mystery, initiatory, oathbound, orthopraxic religion. What does that mean? Ok, lets assume you know what religion means and take each of the other terms one at a time, shall we?

Mystery. Mystery, in this context, refers to information which is unknown to outsiders. This is a very difficult thing to explain to non-Wiccans as there are two types of mystery in Wicca. There are the experiential mysteries, those that can never be told but can only be lived and there are the secrets passed from Gardner. These secrets are bits of information which you need to be told before the experiential mysteries make any sense. Can you come accross these mysteries on your own? Yes.... technically it's possible. My question in return is, how will you know they're the Wiccan mysteries without verification?

Initiatory. The Wiccan religion is, as I've said, not a revealed religion. Aspects of it are hidden from the masses. This is laid down in the 161 rules of Wicca. Initiation is not a function of exclusivity. Initiation is the proccess of ensuring someone is both fit for and prepared for service of the Lord and Lady. See rule 7 and rules 153 to 155

Oathbound. There are oaths placed upon every initiate not to reveal certain pieces of information including the mysteries, the coven members, the covenstead.

Orthopraxic. We all know that anyone who accepts Jesus is a Christian. That's because Christianity is an orthodoxic religion. Orthodoxic religions are those such that what you believe is what makes you a member of the religion. If you can say the Nicean crede, then you're a Catholic. Wicca, on they other hand, is orthopraxic, meaning that what you believe may well be important but how you practice is what makes you a member.

Wicca was pieced together by Gardner using bits of the Celtic, Slavic and Nordic mythologies, the Acradia, the Trad coven he was initiated into, Crowleyan material, OotGD material and general victorian ceremonial magic. Whether it was in keeping with the mystery religions of old or because Gardner was a paranoid megalomaniac, Gardner did not reveal all of Wicca. He bound much of it in mystery, oath and secrecy. Gardner was the first Wiccan. He was not initiated into the religion, he formed it.

Under the laws of Wicca, a new coven may form, lead by a pair third degree initiates (someone privvy to all of the mysteries) one male and one female, or even just one male or female who is willing to train up a new high priest or high priestess as needed. Since only a third degree priest(ess) can set up a new coven, we have a direct line between all Wiccans and Gardner. For example, Bob is initiated by Suzy who was initiated by Mark who was initiated by Janet who was initiated by Gardner. If you don't have a lineage, you can't have access to the mysteries. If you don't have access to the mysteries, you can't be Wiccan.

Let's now break "Wicca" up into two distinct groups. Wiccans and Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans". All Wiccans can trace a line back their lineage back to Gardner, all Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" can't. The Wiccans state that Gardner bound them to keep information which the Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" don't have access to. The Wiccans claim this information is, not only important to but, vital to the practice and understanding of Wicca. Only initiation will reveal these secrets and only Wiccans can initiate.

Can you be a neuro surgeon without going to medical school? No. Can you study medicine on your own? Yes. Will studying medicine and reading medical books ever be enough to make you a neuro surgeon? No. Some people are content studying only holistic medicine. They don't want to be a neuro surgeon.

Can you be a member of the Wiccan religion without initiation? No. Can you study Wicca on your own? Yes. Will studying Wicca and reading books on Wicca ever be enough to make you a wiccan? No. Some people are content spending their entire lives in non-wiccan pagan paths, they don't want wicca.

Can you practice the Wiccan religion without initiation? I'm inclined to go with a half-yes on this one. You can follow aspects of it, you can follow the 161 rules, the rede, take part in coven rituals (or if group rituals aren't your thing) you can do your own. Most covens have certain rituals they allow non-wiccans to attend, partly to let them get a flavour for it and partly to let the coven get a flavour for the non-wiccan(s) in question.

Debunking the standard arguments

"but the word wicca is older than Gardner's religion" and it is. It dropped out of common usage. Now, if you want to refer to yourself as a Wicca, and you practice Anglo Saxon folk magic, by all means do so but prepare to defend that claim as well.

Telling me that "This (a) is what Wicca is, that (b) is what you practice, the two are not the same, therefore you're not wiccan" is equivalent being disrespectful to my path. It's not. It's a simple statement of truth. Saying that you're not wiccan is no more disrespectful to your path than saying you're not a spruce tree.

But I worship the lord and lady. How do you know that? Have they explicitly told you that "I am the Lord of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner" and "I am the Lady of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner"? Have you been to a lineaged coven meeting and conversed with someone who has actualy experienced the Lord and Lady and, most fundamentally, do you know Their names. That's right, the Lord and Lady of Wicca have specific names. Did They tell you what they are?

But says otherwise. Let's see their lineage please. All of the lineaged authors we've had thrown at us inevitably end up supporting the argument I maintain.

 

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

What is Wicca?

Wicca, as defined by the covens which stem off Gardner's original coven, is a mystery, initiatory, oathbound, orthopraxic religion. What does that mean? Ok, lets assume you know what religion means and take each of the other terms one at a time, shall we?

Mystery. Mystery, in this context, refers to information which is unknown to outsiders. This is a very difficult thing to explain to non-Wiccans as there are two types of mystery in Wicca. There are the experiential mysteries, those that can never be told but can only be lived and there are the secrets passed from Gardner. These secrets are bits of information which you need to be told before the experiential mysteries make any sense. Can you come accross these mysteries on your own? Yes.... technically it's possible. My question in return is, how will you know they're the Wiccan mysteries without verification?

Can you do your best to explain what the second kind of mysteries are within Wicca?

Also, if one has access to one set of Mysteries, and finds them to be valid, does one need the second to be Wiccan as well?

Thirdly, if such is the case for either direction, due to the nature of evolving tradition within Wicca, does this produce a New religion, or- as they are Wiccan Mysteries, produce a subsect of Wicca?

Quote:

Initiatory. The Wiccan religion is, as I've said, not a revealed religion. Aspects of it are hidden from the masses. This is laid down in the 161 rules of Wicca. Initiation is not a function of exclusivity. Initiation is the proccess of ensuring someone is both fit for and prepared for service of the Lord and Lady. See rule 7 and rules 153 to 155

If as you stipulate above, one is able to come into the mysteries without a Coven, this becomes a moot point, yes?

Within those bounds, it really is the Lord and the Lady selecting their children directly- as for what self-initiation would bring one into- the answer would be- the Fold of the Wiccan God and Goddess.

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Oathbound. There are oaths placed upon every initiate not to reveal certain pieces of information including the mysteries, the coven members, the covenstead.

I'm still working on this one. We have conflicting info from Pete, so I'll try and find a new source. blaugh

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Orthopraxic. We all know that anyone who accepts Jesus is a Christian. That's because Christianity is an orthodoxic religion. Orthodoxic religions are those such that what you believe is what makes you a member of the religion. If you can say the Nicean crede, then you're a Catholic. Wicca, on they other hand, is orthopraxic, meaning that what you believe may well be important but how you practice is what makes you a member.

1) It's the Apostle's Crede. The Nicean Crede applies to Christians as a whole, the Apostle's Crede has more detailed information for the Roman Catholic Church, and as a Christian can believe in the Nicean Crede, it makes them Christian not Catholic.

2) Orthopraxic religions are all well and good, but as we see with the Dianics, the Wiccan Traditions are changing. With that in mind, if one has the Mysteries, and then creates an Orthodox religion from that tradition, that will eventually fall to the wayside.

One could argue that such was what Cunningham aimed to do. I've heard mixed things about his lineage, and I don't have proof either way- however, should that come about that he was legit, that would be a prime example of this shift.

Quote:

Wicca was pieced together by Gardner using bits of the Celtic, Slavic and Nordic mythologies, the Acradia, the Trad coven he was initiated into, Crowleyan material, OotGD material and general victorian ceremonial magic. Whether it was in keeping with the mystery religions of old or because Gardner was a paranoid megalomaniac, Gardner did not reveal all of Wicca. He bound much of it in mystery, oath and secrecy. Gardner was the first Wiccan. He was not initiated into the religion, he formed it.

~is happy~

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Under the laws of Wicca, a new coven may form, lead by a pair third degree initiates (someone privvy to all of the mysteries) one male and one female, or even just one male or female who is willing to train up a new high priest or high priestess as needed. Since only a third degree priest(ess) can set up a new coven, we have a direct line between all Wiccans and Gardner. For example, Bob is initiated by Suzy who was initiated by Mark who was initiated by Janet who was initiated by Gardner. If you don't have a lineage, you can't have access to the mysteries. If you don't have access to the mysteries, you can't be Wiccan.

This will end up being answered by the contests above. Should the counter points I issue fail, this one goes uncontested.

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Let's now break "Wicca" up into two distinct groups. Wiccans and Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans". All Wiccans can trace a line back their lineage back to Gardner, all Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" can't. The Wiccans state that Gardner bound them to keep information which the Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" don't have access to. The Wiccans claim this information is, not only important to but, vital to the practice and understanding of Wicca. Only initiation will reveal these secrets and only Wiccans can initiate.

See above.

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Can you be a neuro surgeon without going to medical school? No. Can you study medicine on your own? Yes. Will studying medicine and reading medical books ever be enough to make you a neuro surgeon? No. Some people are content studying only holistic medicine. They don't want to be a neuro surgeon.

Much better.

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Can you be a member of the Wiccan religion without initiation? No. Can you study Wicca on your own? Yes. Will studying Wicca and reading books on Wicca ever be enough to make you a wiccan? No. Some people are content spending their entire lives in non-wiccan pagan paths, they don't want wicca.

Can you practice the Wiccan religion without initiation? I'm inclined to go with a half-yes on this one.

The above statement and this part of the second statement seem to conflict.

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You can follow aspects of it, you can follow the 161 rules, the rede, take part in coven rituals (or if group rituals aren't your thing) you can do your own. Most covens have certain rituals they allow non-wiccans to attend, partly to let them get a flavour for it and partly to let the coven get a flavour for the non-wiccan(s) in question.

I find this in conflict with the above statements about it being an orthopraxic religion. If you are practicing the religion, you are taking part in an Orthopraxic religion.

Was that last bit in english on my part?

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Debunking the standard arguments

"but the word wicca is older than Gardner's religion" and it is. It dropped out of common usage. Now, if you want to refer to yourself as a Wicca, and you practice Anglo Saxon folk magic, by all means do so but prepare to defend that claim as well.

mrgreen

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Telling me that "This (a) is what Wicca is, that (b) is what you practice, the two are not the same, therefore you're not wiccan" is equivalent being disrespectful to my path. It's not. It's a simple statement of truth. Saying that you're not wiccan is no more disrespectful to your path than saying you're not a spruce tree.

With all care and friendship Reagun, in your case- it may be disrespectful. But it has everything with how you say it, and not what you say. But that's okay. You're in good company with that one.

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But I worship the lord and lady. How do you know that? Have they explicitly told you that "I am the Lord of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner" and "I am the Lady of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner"? Have you been to a lineaged coven meeting and conversed with someone who has actualy experienced the Lord and Lady and, most fundamentally, do you know Their names. That's right, the Lord and Lady of Wicca have specific names. Did They tell you what they are?

Ah, this one falls under either Argument from Silence (on the grounds that as a Lineaged Wiccan, assuming that because the Lord and Lady did not give their names to the non-lineaged individual, thus, the individaul cannot be working with the Lord and Lady of Wicca) and argument from ignorance, that just because the non-initiate does not have proof that it is that Lord and Lady, doesn't mean they are not.

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But says otherwise. Let's see their lineage please. All of the lineaged authors we've had thrown at us inevitably end up supporting the argument I maintain.

What do we know about Cunningham's Lineage?  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

Can you do your best to explain what the second kind of mysteries are within Wicca?

Also, if one has access to one set of Mysteries, and finds them to be valid, does one need the second to be Wiccan as well?

Thirdly, if such is the case for either direction, due to the nature of evolving tradition within Wicca, does this produce a New religion, or- as they are Wiccan Mysteries, produce a subsect of Wicca?

I'm not comfortable revealing anything on the nature of the second kind of mystery. I'm not sure anymore where the line is, it's been so long that I run the risk of *shudder* oathbreaking. Kudzu?

TeaDidikai

If as you stipulate above, one is able to come into the mysteries without a Coven, this becomes a moot point, yes?

Within those bounds, it really is the Lord and the Lady selecting their children directly- as for what self-initiation would bring one into- the answer would be- the Fold of the Wiccan God and Goddess.

I've altered it to state

Quote:

Initiatory. The Wiccan religion is, as I've said, not a revealed religion. Aspects of it are hidden from the masses. This is laid down in the 161 rules of Wicca. Initiation is not a function of exclusivity. Initiation is the proccess of ensuring someone is both fit for and prepared for the mysteries and the service of the Lord and Lady. See rule 7 and rules 153 to 155 this means that, regardless of whether or not you've come into contact with the mysteries, you're still not there. Initiation is about teaching the mind more than just the mysteries, it's about preperation of the person to be the servant of the Lord and Lady. It's about integrating a person into the Wiccan religion in as seamless a manner as is possible.

TeaDidikai

2) Orthopraxic religions are all well and good, but as we see with the Dianics, the Wiccan Traditions are changing. With that in mind, if one has the Mysteries, and then creates an Orthodox religion from that tradition, that will eventually fall to the wayside.

AFAIK the Dianics aren't Wiccan anymore.

TeaDidikai

One could argue that such was what Cunningham aimed to do. I've heard mixed things about his lineage, and I don't have proof either way- however, should that come about that he was legit, that would be a prime example of this shift.

When we see a lineaged coven accepting self-initiates without initiating them, I'll change my tune.

TeaDidikai

The above statement and this part of the second statement seem to conflict.

Which is why I followed it up with the "aspects" bit.

TeaDidikai

I find this in conflict with the above statements about it being an orthopraxic religion. If you are practicing the religion, you are taking part in an Orthopraxic religion.

Hrm... perhaps I should change it to mention that Wicca is an orthopraxic priesthood and that practicing it doesn't make you a priest (ergo member)

TeaDidikai

Ah, this one falls under either Argument from Silence (on the grounds that as a Lineaged Wiccan, assuming that because the Lord and Lady did not give their names to the non-lineaged individual, thus, the individaul cannot be working with the Lord and Lady of Wicca) and argument from ignorance, that just because the non-initiate does not have proof that it is that Lord and Lady, doesn't mean they are not.

However, the claimant is under burden of proof to prove that the God and Goddess they worship are the Lord and Lady of Wicca. I am not arguing that they are not I am merely posing questions which highlight the problems which arise with self dedication.

TeaDidikai

What do we know about Cunningham's Lineage?

Can't find it.  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

Can you do your best to explain what the second kind of mysteries are within Wicca?

Also, if one has access to one set of Mysteries, and finds them to be valid, does one need the second to be Wiccan as well?

Thirdly, if such is the case for either direction, due to the nature of evolving tradition within Wicca, does this produce a New religion, or- as they are Wiccan Mysteries, produce a subsect of Wicca?

I'm not comfortable revealing anything on the nature of the second kind of mystery. I'm not sure anymore where the line is, it's been so long that I run the risk of *shudder* oathbreaking. Kudzu?

Then might I suggest saying the other kind of mystery is not detailed for fear of breaking my oaths?

Quote:

TeaDidikai

If as you stipulate above, one is able to come into the mysteries without a Coven, this becomes a moot point, yes?

Within those bounds, it really is the Lord and the Lady selecting their children directly- as for what self-initiation would bring one into- the answer would be- the Fold of the Wiccan God and Goddess.

I've altered it to state

Quote:

Initiatory. The Wiccan religion is, as I've said, not a revealed religion. Aspects of it are hidden from the masses. This is laid down in the 161 rules of Wicca. Initiation is not a function of exclusivity. Initiation is the proccess of ensuring someone is both fit for and prepared for the mysteries and the service of the Lord and Lady. See rule 7 and rules 153 to 155 this means that, regardless of whether or not you've come into contact with the mysteries, you're still not there. Initiation is about teaching the mind more than just the mysteries, it's about preperation of the person to be the servant of the Lord and Lady. It's about integrating a person into the Wiccan religion in as seamless a manner as is possible.

Please explain how if one has the Wiccan Mysteries, Has Faith, and Practices, the ritual by the priesthood is what makes them Wiccan?

After all, those three things were what made Gardner Wiccan.

Quote:

TeaDidikai

2) Orthopraxic religions are all well and good, but as we see with the Dianics, the Wiccan Traditions are changing. With that in mind, if one has the Mysteries, and then creates an Orthodox religion from that tradition, that will eventually fall to the wayside.

AFAIK the Dianics aren't Wiccan anymore.

Depends on the group. I heard about a Dianic Reform movement in my area. ~loves Occult Shop Gossip~ They are seeking to return their tradition to a state where it is more like Wicca than the Dianic Witchcraft traditions have taken it, thus creating a Reformed Dianic Wicca and a Dianic Witchcraft tradition.

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TeaDidikai

One could argue that such was what Cunningham aimed to do. I've heard mixed things about his lineage, and I don't have proof either way- however, should that come about that he was legit, that would be a prime example of this shift.

When we see a lineaged coven accepting self-initiates without initiating them, I'll change my tune.

Well, the whole point is that one needs not have the coven's permission to use the title. Within this context (this specific part of the argument) to assert that such is required would be an appeal to tradition until it can be countered on other grounds.

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TeaDidikai

The above statement and this part of the second statement seem to conflict.

Which is why I followed it up with the "aspects" bit.

Got it. Mayhaps some reworking so it doesn't trip people up? I know I'm dyslexic, but I also know I won't be the only one who wonders about that. (Or I might. After all, look at the usual folks who attempt to challenge your thesis)

Quote:

TeaDidikai

I find this in conflict with the above statements about it being an orthopraxic religion. If you are practicing the religion, you are taking part in an Orthopraxic religion.

Hrm... perhaps I should change it to mention that Wicca is an orthopraxic priesthood and that practicing it doesn't make you a priest (ergo member)

That would n** it in the bud for sure.

It also silences a lot of arguments about the nature of self initiation- as one does not initiate into the Catholic Priesthood without going through the pre-reqs.

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TeaDidikai

Ah, this one falls under either Argument from Silence (on the grounds that as a Lineaged Wiccan, assuming that because the Lord and Lady did not give their names to the non-lineaged individual, thus, the individaul cannot be working with the Lord and Lady of Wicca) and argument from ignorance, that just because the non-initiate does not have proof that it is that Lord and Lady, doesn't mean they are not.

However, the claimant is under burden of proof to prove that the God and Goddess they worship are the Lord and Lady of Wicca.

Are they? They are within M&R, and to a lesser extend the Rehab Guild- but as much as I like logical fallacies, in the real world, they are an opt in standard of debate. (Hell, they are on Gaia as well, hence why we have GD and Chatterbox, yes?)

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I am not arguing that they are not I am merely posing questions which highlight the problems which arise with self dedication.

Problems that are only problems to you. For example, were you to ask me to prove that it is Mokosh I work with, we all know how short that debate would be.

Quote:

TeaDidikai

What do we know about Cunningham's Lineage?

Can't find it.

This could be fun. I'll see what I can find out.

Care to update with the corrections and either post it or PM it to me so I can look at it with fresh eyes?  

[Starlock]

Nice post, but I still feel for the sake of completeness and accuracy that what was posted could go under the title "Traditional Wicca" or something of that sort so one can also cover the varieties of "Dedicatory Wicca." Regardless of whether or not you consider Dedicatory Wicca actually Wicca, it exists and is considered by most to be a form of Wicca, albeit distinct from the more traditional varieties. In that light it would make sense to include information about those branches as well.  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

Please explain how if one has the Wiccan Mysteries, Has Faith, and Practices, the ritual by the priesthood is what makes them Wiccan?

After all, those three things were what made Gardner Wiccan.

Because it's a defining feature of the religion. Their religion, their rules.

TeaDidikai

Depends on the group. I heard about a Dianic Reform movement in my area. ~loves Occult Shop Gossip~ They are seeking to return their tradition to a state where it is more like Wicca than the Dianic Witchcraft traditions have taken it, thus creating a Reformed Dianic Wicca and a Dianic Witchcraft tradition.

Don't know the details, I'm afraid.

TeaDidikai

Well, the whole point is that one needs not have the coven's permission to use the title. Within this context (this specific part of the argument) to assert that such is required would be an appeal to tradition until it can be countered on other grounds.

Ok pet, dyslexia, too many subclauses. What?

TeaDidikai

Got it. Mayhaps some reworking so it doesn't trip people up? I know I'm dyslexic, but I also know I won't be the only one who wonders about that. (Or I might. After all, look at the usual folks who attempt to challenge your thesis)

Will do.

TeaDidikai

That would n** it in the bud for sure.

Will do later.

TeaDidikai

It also silences a lot of arguments about the nature of self initiation- as one does not initiate into the Catholic Priesthood without going through the pre-reqs.

That'd be my point. *grin*

TeaDidikai

Quote:

However, the claimant is under burden of proof to prove that the God and Goddess they worship are the Lord and Lady of Wicca.

Are they? They are within M&R, and to a lesser extend the Rehab Guild- but as much as I like logical fallacies, in the real world, they are an opt in standard of debate. (Hell, they are on Gaia as well, hence why we have GD and Chatterbox, yes?)

It really doesn't matetr where they are, they claim something. I am not contending that because they cannot prove it that it is so.. I am asking them to show how they know. There is a difference.

TeaDidikai

Problems that are only problems to you. For example, were you to ask me to prove that it is Mokosh I work with, we all know how short that debate would be.

Indeed.

TeaDidikai

This could be fun. I'll see what I can find out.

Care to update with the corrections and either post it or PM it to me so I can look at it with fresh eyes?

Will do when I get home, things are busying up.  

[CuAnnan]

Starlock

Nice post, but I still feel for the sake of completeness and accuracy that what was posted could go under the title "Traditional Wicca" or something of that sort so one can also cover the varieties of "Dedicatory Wicca." Regardless of whether or not you consider Dedicatory Wicca actually Wicca, it exists and is considered by most to be a form of Wicca, albeit distinct from the more traditional varieties. In that light it would make sense to include information about those branches as well.

If you go to the Bible belt, evolution is considered to be wrong.

It is not considered to be wiccans by wiccans as I outline them and as they are the only ones that matter, appealing to popularity isn't a just cause.  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

Please explain how if one has the Wiccan Mysteries, Has Faith, and Practices, the ritual by the priesthood is what makes them Wiccan?

After all, those three things were what made Gardner Wiccan.

Because it's a defining feature of the religion. Their religion, their rules.

~wink~ But it was Gardner's religion, his rules said he was Wiccan.

At this junction the debate upon this point splits two ways- one, the entitlement issue in using a word that has dropped from use or two, the argument that if you discount those standards, you discount Gardner himself. As each tradition allows for minor variation, one can attempt to justify the use of the word Wiccan as part of this minor variation.

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TeaDidikai

Well, the whole point is that one needs not have the coven's permission to use the title. Within this context (this specific part of the argument) to assert that such is required would be an appeal to tradition until it can be countered on other grounds.

Ok pet, dyslexia, too many subclauses. What?

I'm saying that until the other points I raised are proven one way or the other, this argument is an appeal to tradition.

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TeaDidikai

It also silences a lot of arguments about the nature of self initiation- as one does not initiate into the Catholic Priesthood without going through the pre-reqs.

That'd be my point. *grin*

The problem you then face is that even the RCC makes allowences for lay-clergy in different situations. Such as an emergancy Last Rights, emergancy baptism of an infant who is about to die, or even lay-ministry to other lay-people through mission work within the Church and community outreach programs.

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It really doesn't matetr where they are, they claim something. I am not contending that because they cannot prove it that it is so.. I am asking them to show how they know. There is a difference.

But what they "know", is that they worship the Wiccan Lord and Lady. They have gnosis of this. Neither a Lineaged Wiccan nor a Lay Heretic can show you what they know.

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Will do when I get home, things are busying up.

Sounds good. mrgreen  

[SlaineWildfire]

I've found something on Scott Cunningham's lineage that might be useful...

Quote:

http://realmagick.com/articles/40/2240.html
"By the summer of 1979 Raven felt that this period of exploration into Wicca was complete and he returned to the sole practice of Italian Witchcraft. In the fall of 1979 he started classes on the Italian Craft at Ye Olde Enchantment Shoppe in San Diego. One of the people attending was Scott Cunningham. Raven and Scott became friends, and in 1980, Scott was initiated into the Aridian Tradition of Italian Witchcraft, a system formed by Raven that same year. Scott remained a first degree initiate during his years of study with Raven. Three years later Scott moved on from the Aridian Tradition in favor of a self-styled view of modern Wicca."

 

[Doctrix]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

Can you do your best to explain what the second kind of mysteries are within Wicca?

I'm not comfortable revealing anything on the nature of the second kind of mystery. I'm not sure anymore where the line is, it's been so long that I run the risk of *shudder* oathbreaking. Kudzu?

My hands are also tied on the matter, now. I'm afraid that due to the nature of what Reagun Ban calls "the second kind of mysteries" (that is, those that need to be told,) I cannot tell you about them! Sorry. I have the opposite problem as Reagon Ban, as well. For him, it has been too long... For me, it is all too new. I can't be sure that what I say will be too close to *shudder* oathbreaking, so I'm afriad I shant attempt it at this time.  

[TeaDidikai]

[Kudzu]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

Can you do your best to explain what the second kind of mysteries are within Wicca?

I'm not comfortable revealing anything on the nature of the second kind of mystery. I'm not sure anymore where the line is, it's been so long that I run the risk of *shudder* oathbreaking. Kudzu?

My hands are also tied on the matter, now. I'm afraid that due to the nature of what Reagun Ban calls "the second kind of mysteries" (that is, those that need to be told,) I cannot tell you about them! Sorry. I have the opposite problem as Reagon Ban, as well. For him, it has been too long... For me, it is all too new. I can't be sure that what I say will be too close to *shudder* oathbreaking, so I'm afriad I shant attempt it at this time.

That pretty much answers my question.

Might I suggest I put forth a "Non-Wiccan's Understanding" for you to quote Reagun?  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

Might I suggest I put forth a "Non-Wiccan's Understanding" for you to quote Reagun?

Sure! Though I can't promise I'll respond to it! I also wrote a non-Wiccan's understanding of these Mysteries somewhere before I was Initiated, but I can't seem to find it. It was something to the effect of the fact that the Mysteries could be written in letters as high as the Hollywood sign in front of your face, but without the experiences to go with them, one could not access the benefit.  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

Might I suggest I put forth a "Non-Wiccan's Understanding" for you to quote Reagun?

That would be fantastic.  

[TeaDidikai]

"Two my understanding having spoken with lineaged Wiccans and former Lineaged Wiccans, there is an expressed idea that there are two kinds of Mysteries.

The first has been explained by Reagun well enough. The experiences that grant the gnosis as the Mysteries are passed within the Lineaged Coven and shared amongst the Children of the Wiccan Lord and Lady as part of being counted within the Initiated Clergy of their Children.

The second form of Mysteries are suggested as the more straight forward. Things such as the actual nature under which the first form of Mysteries are experienced. These come together to give context to one another and are both a vital part of the Wiccan tradition and the experience that is shared amongst the Initiated Clergy."

~total hip shot~  

[Doctrix]

TeaDidikai

The experiences that grant the gnosis as the Mysteries are passed within the Lineaged Coven and shared amongst the Children of the Wiccan Lord and Lady as part of being counted within the Initiated Clergy of their Children.

The second form of Mysteries are suggested as the more straight forward. Things such as the actual nature under which the first form of Mysteries are experienced. These come together to give context to one another and are both a vital part of the Wiccan tradition and the experience that is shared amongst the Initiated Clergy."

Sounds about like my interpretation before I was Initiated also. Though I would have added that the second type of Mysteries only give context insofar as they allow others to learn them in the same way as they were taught, NOT "context" as in "the first type of mysteries are then figured out/explained by anyone other than you." But of course, I'm just adding my pre-Initiation understanding since I can't do more!